Author Topic: To DoctorNo on [4:34]  (Read 16484 times)

/*JM*/

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To DoctorNo on [4:34]
« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2004, 01:51:11 AM »
Quote from: "lrhazi"
Salam all,

There was a couple of mistakes in the list above, I believe I got it  right now:

2:26, 2:60, 2:61, 2:73, 2:273,3:112, 3:156, 4:94, 4:101, 5:106 7:160 8:12, 8:50, 13:17, 14:24, 14:25, 14:45, 16:74, 16:75, 16:76, 16:112,17:48 18:11, 18:32, 18:45, 20:77,  22:73 24:31, 24:35, 25:9, 25:39, 26:63 29:43, 30:28, 30:58, 36:13, 36:78 37:93, 38:44, 39:27, 39:29 43:17, 43:57, 43:58, 47:3, 47:4, 47:27 57:13, 59:21, 66:10, 66:11, 73:20

qfpagesize=100

Read them all here, in one big page, Arabic and several translations

Edited to correct: 26:43 to be 26:63


salam irhazi,

Why did you choose to translate "daraba" as "ignore/disregard/push " in [4:34] ?

http://yaqb.lrhazi.com/index.php?query=c%3D4

Thank you for you rechearch

peace

marie

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To DoctorNo on [4:34]
« Reply #91 on: July 24, 2004, 01:56:33 AM »
Salam MJ,

Quote
I think this translation is just conjecture, because?

He writes : ?dharb? = example ; but in fact he should have written ?daraba mathalan? = ?he gives examples?? ?daraba? cannot mean ?example? without the word ? mathalan ?.


It is not true,  "Aldarb" can mean "almithal" We can say (from Lisan al3arab) "3ala hazha aldarb"  which means "according this example"



About "daraba the camel" in its "luggage?: Why  "nafara" is given as a first meaning for "daraba fee..." if "daraba" in this context means only 'to hit'.


The meaning given in the dictioonary for "Nafara" is not "to hit" but to move away, to turn away...


Does "strike them till the separation" make sense for you? whereas Allah tell us : "fala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan" = do not seek a way over them.

Does god command us to solve our conflict with violence?


In my opinion, we have to consider the verse 38:44 in which "idrib bihi" doesn't mean "to beat" contrary to the grammatical rules.
Consider also the verse 4:128

The Arabic words are rich in meanings and it is necessary to follow the best explanation according only to the context of the verse.





Salam
 

Marie
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lrhazi

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To DoctorNo on [4:34]
« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2004, 03:31:03 AM »
Quote from: "/*JM*/"


Why did you choose to translate "daraba" as "ignore/disregard/push " in [4:34] ?

http://yaqb.lrhazi.com/index.php?query=c%3D4

Thank you for you rechearch

peace


The literal translation is that of : Muhamed Ahmed & His Daughter Samira

I'll give more info on the translation, where to downlaod,... if you want.

Peace,
Mohamed~
--
Conspiracy: to act in harmony toward a common end

/*JM*/

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To DoctorNo on [4:34]
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2004, 08:42:20 PM »
Quote from: "marie"

Salam MJ,

Quote
I think this translation is just conjecture, because?

He writes : ?dharb? = example ; but in fact he should have written ?daraba mathalan? = ?he gives examples?? ?daraba? cannot mean ?example? without the word ? mathalan ?.


It is not true,  "Aldarb" can mean "almithal" We can say (from Lisan al3arab) "3ala hazha aldarb"  which means "according this example"



salam Marie,

OK, about dharb = example, i can be wrong?

But?
Look at what Dr Shabbir writes  :
?dharb? = example (13:17), (16:74), (36:13)

Let's verify it :

[13:17] : (?)kathalikayadribu Allahu al-amthala  -> Thus doth Allah set forth parables.
[16:74] : Fala tadriboo lillahial-amthala inna Allaha yaAAlamu (?) -> Invent not similitudes for Allah
[36:13] : Waidrib lahum mathalan as-habaalqaryati (?) -> Set forth to them, by way of a parable

So, In Dr Shabbir's examples, no dharb without mithal? He should have quoted Lisan Al arab !

Quote from: "marie"


About "daraba the camel" in its "luggage?: Why  "nafara" is given as a first meaning for "daraba fee..." if "daraba" in this context means only 'to hit'.



Marie, I'm sorry I have difficulties to understand the whole definition of daraba albaAAeer fee jahazihi..
It seems to me like it was lacking some words?
You say that the first meaning of daraba albaAAeer fee jahazihi.. is nafara = to move over?
But to move over from WHAT ?
You answer the luggage?
But why have the word jahazihi = the luggage have not been put near to nafara to mean "to move over from its luggage" ????

Is the definition incomplete ?
There's something I don't understand?

Thanks for your patience

Quote from: "marie"

Does "strike them till the separation" make sense for you? whereas Allah tell us : "fala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan" = do not seek a way over them.

"do not seek a way over them" applies in the case the wife does not make nushuz.

But daraba  =  to beat/ strike / scourge does not make sense to me because of [4:35], [4:128], [2:231]?

Quote from: "marie"

Does god command us to solve our conflict with violence?

As far as possible, no.
Quote from: "marie"


In my opinion, we have to consider the verse 38:44 in which "idrib bihi" doesn't mean "to beat" contrary to the grammatical rules.
Consider also the verse 4:128

Are you saying that translating idribuhubba in [4:34] as leave them is contrary to grammar rules ? And that there can be grammar errors in the Quran ?
Quote from: "marie"

The Arabic words are rich in meanings and it is necessary to follow the best explanation according only to the context of the verse.

The best explanation?. Provided it is among the possible explanations..

/*JM*/

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To DoctorNo on [4:34]
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2004, 08:59:17 PM »
Quote from: "lrhazi"
Quote from: "/*JM*/"


Why did you choose to translate "daraba" as "ignore/disregard/push " in [4:34] ?

http://yaqb.lrhazi.com/index.php?query=c%3D4

Thank you for you rechearch

peace


The literal translation is that of : Muhamed Ahmed & His Daughter Samira

I'll give more info on the translation, where to downlaod,... if you want.

Peace,
Mohamed~


salam,

Do you know it which dictionnary they have found these meanings of daraba ?
The list of the dictionnary they have used can be found here, page 456 :
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/think786/Q_dictionary.pdf

thanks

marie

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To DoctorNo on [4:34]
« Reply #95 on: July 26, 2004, 04:54:39 AM »
Salam JM,

Quote
Let's verify it :

[13:17] : (?)kathalikayadribu Allahu al-amthala -> Thus doth Allah set forth parables.
[16:74] : Fala tadriboo lillahial-amthala inna Allaha yaAAlamu (?) -> Invent not similitudes for Allah
[36:13] : Waidrib lahum mathalan as-habaalqaryati (?) -> Set forth to them, by way of a parable


la pr?sence du mot "mathal"  n'est pas obligatoire. La langue arabe est riche et il faut explorer toutes les possibilit?s.

Quote
So, In Dr Shabbir's examples, no dharb without mithal? He should have quoted Lisan Al arab !


Je pense qu'il a suivi une des possibilit?s offertes par le verbe "daraba"

Quote
Marie, I'm sorry I have difficulties to understand the whole definition of daraba albaAAeer fee jahazihi..
It seems to me like it was lacking some words?
You say that the first meaning of daraba albaAAeer fee jahazihi.. is nafara = to move over?
But to move over from WHAT ?
You answer the luggage?
But why have the word jahazihi = the luggage have not been put near to nafara to mean "to move over from its luggage" ????


Peut ?tre je me trompe mais ?a me parait ?vident et sans aucun doute que "nafara" est en rapport avec "jahazihi". La suite de l'explication donn? par le dictionaire le confirme. "Yanfuru" comment? en donnant des coups de pieds et des ruades pour faire tomber ce qu'il a sur le dos. C'est une fa?on parmi d'autres de s'?loigner de quelque chose.

Quote
"do not seek a way over them" applies in the case the wife does not make nushuz.


Sans oublier le verset suivant 4:35 :

35. And if you fear a split between them, then send a judge from his family and a judge from hers. If they want to reconcile, then God will bring them together. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.

Si l'?pouse ne change pas sa d?cision, on fait intervenir des membres des deux parties pour les r?concilier.

Quote
But daraba = to beat/ strike / scourge does not make sense to me because of [4:35], [4:128], [2:231]


C'est exact, le verset 2:231 nous montre bien que la s?paration doit se passer de la meilleure mani?re. Il y a une coh?rence entre tous ces versets qui traitent de la s?paration /le divorce.

Je pense que ce qui est ? l'origine des erreurs de traduction est qu'on isole parfois un mot du contexte du verset. On pr?f?re suivre le sens courant donn? ? un mot dans le dictionnaire au lieu de suivre la d?finition coranique et la sagesse divine. Pour ?viter une mauvaise compr?hension de certains versets,  il faut lire le coran dans sa globalit? et ne n?gliger aucun verset.

Quote
Are you saying that translating idribuhubba in [4:34] as leave them is contrary to grammar rules ? And that there can be grammar errors in the Quran ?


Certainement pas. Mais sache que les dictionnaires sont post?rieures au coran et c'est le coran qui explique le sens du mot et non le dictionnaire.

Quote
The best explanation?. Provided it is among the possible explanations..


Il faut garder ? l'esprit que le coran est coh?rent du d?but ? la fin et sans contradiction.

Dieu guide tout ceux qui sont en qu?te de v?rit? vers la meilleure explication.

Salam

Marie
And He is the God, there is no god but He.
http://hanif.free.fr/

idolfree1

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To DoctorNo on [4:34]
« Reply #96 on: July 26, 2004, 05:09:35 AM »
Peace be upon you all,

Please debate in english so we can all benefit.

Also, can someone give me a quick overview of this debate, I am not sure what the difference is. It seems to me that "Daraba" does not mean "beat/strike".

/*JM*/

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To DoctorNo on [4:34]
« Reply #97 on: July 26, 2004, 10:49:23 PM »
Salam,

What do you think of the following translation by  Dr Kamal Omar :

[4 :34] : The men are Qawwam (protectors, maintainers and guardians) over women because of what Allah has bestowed more to some of those (who constitute the community as men and women) in comparison to others, and because what the men spent (on the family members) out of their earnings (and wealth). Therefore the righteous women (are those who are) devoutly obedient (in accordance with the limits set in the Book of Allah), acting as guards to the hidden aspect of what Allah has guarded. And those women (from whom) you (husbands) apprehend their attitude of disruption and break-up — so deliver them the Message, (if still they do not correct their attitude) leave them (unresponded in their sexual desires) in their beds, (if still they do not mend and the breakdown of the family-bond is imminent) wazribuhunna [then bring forward to them (the suggestion for dissolution of marriage)]. Then if these women obeyed you (the way Allah desires in His Book) then do not seek against them any outlet (to get rid of them). Surely, Allah is Most Elevated, Most High.
http://www.thedivinebook.org/Quran/Chapter.asp?Chapter=4%2C176&AyatId=34&ChapterId=4&Submit2=Submit

He explains his translation by arguing that there are words lacking and grammar errors in the quran.
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2087

marie

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To DoctorNo on [4:34]
« Reply #98 on: August 05, 2004, 06:44:16 PM »
Peace JM,

Quote from: "marie"

Quote
Do you think the word "fee" (lacking in Waidriboohunna, [4:34]) is important ?

/*in my opinion, "Waidriboohunna" implies "Waidriboohunna fee almadajiAAi" ; like "waohjuroohunna ". In other words, I read this part of the verse as comme "waohjuroohunna  waidriboohunna fee almadajiAAi"*/


The verse 4:1 illustrates the same structure than "waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna" in 4:34

Quote

4:1. O people, be aware of your Lord who has created you from one soul and He created from it its mate and sent forth from it many men and women; and be aware of God whom you ask about, and the relatives. God is watcher over you.
Ya ayyuha alnnasuittaqoo rabbakumu allathee khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatinwakhalaqa minha zawjaha wabaththa minhumarijalan katheeran wanisaan waittaqoo Allahaallathee tasaaloona bihi waal-arhamainna Allaha kana AAalaykum raqeeban


"rijalan katheeran wanisaan" is translated as "many men and women", the word "katheeran" (many) is between "rijalan" (men) and "nisaan" (women). "Many" (katheeran) is for men and women in 4:1 and I say the same thing for "in bedchamber" (fee almadajiAAi), it is for "waohjuroohunna" and "waidriboohunna" in 4:34

In the same way for "rijalan katheeran wanisaan" in 4:1, I translate  "waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna" as "and abandon them and separate / move away/ from them in the bedchamber in 4:34

In other word, I can say "waohjuroohunna (abandon them) wainfuroohuna (turn away from them) fee almadajiAAi (in bed chamber),

The verbs "Hajara" and "nafara" are not identical but have a common concept : the separation

Let us suppose that the verb "daraba" in 4:34 means "to beat", why to beat them in the bedchamber and not in the living room?
 :roll:

There is no doubt, the quran explains itself.



Marie
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http://hanif.free.fr/

sabo

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To DoctorNo on [4:34]
« Reply #99 on: August 05, 2004, 08:58:28 PM »
Salaam Marie,

Very good explanation !!! Excellent.

I never tried to think about this verse, that way, even if this structure and style is used so many times in the Quran and not just in 4:1.

Well, so you'd read it "ihjuruhunna + idribuhunna fil madajii'" and this makes sense. Also the verb "daraba + fi" is used in the Quran for travelling as in "darabtum fil ard" or going far away. Did you research this before? "daraba + fi" can be the key for making this verse 100% clear in my mind! Your post made it clear, i just need to authenticate this understanding by researching "daraba + fi + place" to understand how its used in arabic. If you researched this before, pls let me know

God bless


best regards
*sabo*