Let's discuss some Theistic Proofs

[CavemanDoctor]

Peace all,

I am curious as to what Theistic Proofs users on the forum subscribe to, either consciously or unconsciously.  We can hopefully discuss these Theistic Proofs in kind, in order to better substantiate the rationality of our beliefs (See qur'an 17:36). 

Some basic points:

1) By Theistic Proofs, I propose to mean arguments that you adopt as evidence for the rationality of your belief in a God. 
2) A Theistic Proof need not be a deductive argument (i.e. an argument whose conclusion must be true, if the premises are true) since I'm sure many of us would agree that such arguments are uncommon vis a vis the belief in God. 
3) Rather, Theistic Proofs in my experience tend to be inductive arguments (i.e. arguments whose conclusions are rendered probable, given the truth of their premises).
4) Since we oft discuss them elsewhere on the forum, I prefer to only speak of non-qur'anic Theistic Proofs.  That is to say, let's not discuss Theistic Proofs that have at their foundation the divinity of the qur'an (e.g. the argument from science, the argument from inimitability, the argument from mathematics, etc.)

So with those considerations in mind, what are some Theistic Proofs that you all subscribe to?  Hopefully this thread can foster some serious discussion. 

And if you are of the view that Theistic Proofs aren't worthwhile intellectual pursuits, or are unnecessary (in any sense of the term), please discuss why, as that in itself is a fundamental question in the philosophy of religion.

[Bigmo]

People have different reasons for believing in God. I think that its wired on us and we either accept it or fight it out and reject it. However i do not know whats inside others. We have different experiences in life which affects how we view the subject. Tribulations, success or failures, happiness and depression, anger and hopelessness can all play a role in our faith in God or any other diety. I think whats hard is to connect or seperate God from life. Is life experinece a divine communication, or is it completely indifferent to God. The Koran says that Job(Ayoub) was tested, so was Abraham and the believers. So what happens in life and the tribulations does affect our faith. But we have different experiences in life and we all have different reactions to these experiences. Your question is too broad I think.

[Katara]

Ah, hopefully this discussion would remind and benefit all of us..

It was something like this that i arrived to the conclusion that this earth can collapse any time.. it's just a matter of time. Something or some one is/are taking care of the systems.

1) All structures, buildings and objects created needed constant repair/care and attention or they'll fade away.

2) The tree's systems/ structure, human being's and other things' structure needed h2o to keep functioning.

3) Rain provides this element.

4) The process in how rain is produced and the elements involved in that process surely need repair/care and attention or they'll collapse.


As you see, #4 is a generalization.
what do you think?

[OPF]

I like the cosmological argument. That's a deductive argument. It does not matter how long the chain of causes and effects is, as long as Cause #1 is always there. The thing is though, in the quran, Abraham defined his lord as the being that created him - which makes far more sense than inventing a picture of "God" and subscribing to it.

[Katara]

The being that created him must created his parents, is it not?

To create something, you must know it-- its ins and outs, weaknesses and strengths.
Knowing fully a creation, you then have the power to control the creation.


Ibrahim could have knew every part of him were subjected to a higher power..



The being that created him must created his parents, is it not?

edited grammatical error. :p

[Bigmo]

The being that created him must created his parents, is it not?

To create something, you must know it-- its ins and outs, weaknesses and strengths.
Knowing fully a creation, you then have the power to control the creation.


Ibrahim could have knew every part of him were subjected to a higher power..



The being that created him must created his parents, is it not?

edited grammatical error. :p

Abraham believed that God must be the unseen that never goes away or is limited, such as Sun or Moon. I think it means Abraham realized God is the creator of all that is seen and known.

[Jack]

"Nothing can't create something."

[Wakas]

peace CD,

Have you came across any in AQ?

[OPF]

"Nothing can't create something."

That of course results in people saying "the universe always existed".

I kinda like JonnyK's idea of god being a statistical certainty, in fact mainstream researchers a few centuries back did entertain similar thoughts about super-intelligent beings (Boltzmann brains). The way that concept is applied though, is that we ARE the "boltzmann brains". It makes sense.

[Tay]

Peace Cavey, all,

If I wanted to plant a beautiful garden, I would have an idea in mind of what I wanted. The colors, the symmetry or assymetry, the harmony of what I planted with it's surroundings, etc. I would then take all the steps necessary to fertilize the soil, get rid of the weeds, sow the seeds, and all the little details in between the idea and the frution. At some point, the garden will be in full bloom and it will be beautiful.

Now, if someone were to stumble upon that garden and try to understand how it came into being, he would have many paths to choose. He could test the soil. He could study the flowers and plants and their native origins. He could look into the molecular structure of everything in front of him. He could do any number of things and come up with any number of sources. But the one thing he cannot quantify is the idea that spawned the garden in my mind. He cannot quantify my version of beauty. If he never met me, then all of his theories and calculations will ultimately be wrong - as right as he may feel.

The idea is what spawned the biological result. Without the idea, the result doesn't exist.

This is not in any way a theistic proof. Nor is it even philosophically sound. My understanding of God is transcendant of all that we can use to understand God. We cannot, imo, come to a true knowing by simply observing and measuring. There is the unquantifiable link between all of life that can only be felt and appreciated by our own innate understanding of beauty and love. These are the catalysts that spawn creation.

If we think in terms of what we, as self-aware human beings, are capable of creating from nothing - the result is nothing. We are incapable of creating even the smallest insect because anything we could possibly use to create it already exists. We can make no new ingredients, only new recipes.

But the one thing that we can create from nothing is thought. Ideas come from nowhere - as far as we know. And we create thoughts everyday. In that, I believe, lies the true understanding of creation.