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This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real

Started by Fadhli, March 12, 2008, 06:55:37 AM

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jonny_k

Peace "tay"

Quote from: Tay on March 15, 2008, 04:11:15 AM
Peace Jonny,

Eyewitness testimony is enough evidence to convict a murderer to death. It's also enough to invoke God's curse according to 11:18. So, tell me, if you weren't behind this guy's 'eyes' when he experienced whatever he experienced, how can you say it's not true?

JK- NO MAN EYE WITNESS TESTIMONY IS BY NO MEANS ENOUGH. This is exactly the problem. If that were enough than trinity is perhaps also correct as people claim to have witnessed the event. Witnesses can lie or be deluded. ONLY WHEN THEIR STATEMENTS ARE CROSS EXAMINED WITH THE ADDITION OF OTHER SUPPORTING EVIDENCES AND THOROUGH PSYCHOLOGICAL ANALYSIS can one be convicted of a crime. Therefore these complex emotional processes in court through which peole subconsciously reveal themselves to the jury and judge.

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You can argue that it's not proven scientifically - and you would be right. But you can't say it's not true. Unless you have some evidence. Also, please provide some evidence that you're not a figment of my imagination.  ;)

Peace,
Tay

JK- Unless something is POSITIVE, proven true, it remains imaginary. Plain and simple. Otherwise you might say everything is true including santa clause and the tooth fairy. Your asking to disprove a -ve. Bro what is wrong with you? GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

Tay

Peace Jonny,

QuoteNO MAN EYE WITNESS TESTIMONY IS BY NO MEANS ENOUGH.

Yes, it often is.

QuoteIf that were enough than trinity is perhaps also correct as people claim to have witnessed the event.

I'm not sure what trinity event you're speaking of.

QuoteONLY WHEN THEIR STATEMENTS ARE CROSS EXAMINED WITH THE ADDITION OF OTHER SUPPORTING EVIDENCES AND THOROUGH PSYCHOLOGICAL ANALYSIS can one be convicted of a crime.

You sure about that? You're also ignoring 11:18 - why?

QuoteUnless something is POSITIVE, proven true, it remains imaginary. Plain and simple.

You are wrong, plain and simple. If I wrote a poem, and then burned it, does that make the poem imaginary?? That's the point you're missing, Jonny. Just because there's no physical evidence of something does not make it false nor imaginary, it only makes it unproven. You cannot say, with any veracity, that anything is true or false unless you have evidence of it being true or false. No evidence means no conclusion.

QuoteYour asking to disprove a -ve. Bro what is wrong with you?

No, I wasn't. Let's try it again. Prove to me that you exist. That's positive, right?

Peace,
Tay
And you see the mountains, you think they are solid, while they are passing by like the clouds. The making of God who perfected everything. He is Expert over what you do. [27:88]

Amin74

Comfort lost is opportunity gained.

jonny_k

Peace "tay",

Quote from: Tay on March 15, 2008, 10:01:18 AM
Peace Jonny,


Yes, it often is.

JK- This maybe the case for backwards or shariah courts but is rationally unacceptable.

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I'm not sure what trinity event you're speaking of.

JK- The father, son and holy ghost, GOD forbid, being three separete, yet essentially the same personifications of GOD.

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You sure about that? You're also ignoring 11:18 - why?

JK- Did you forget to read the previous verse:
[11:17]  As for those who are given solid/clear proof(bayyinah) from their Lord, reported by a witness from Him, and before it, ...

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You are wrong, plain and simple. If I wrote a poem, and then burned it, does that make the poem imaginary?? That's the point you're missing, Jonny. Just because there's no physical evidence of something does not make it false nor imaginary, it only makes it unproven. You cannot say, with any veracity, that anything is true or false unless you have evidence of it being true or false. No evidence means no conclusion.

JK- 17:36 makes it clear that we dont pusue things for which there is no evidence. Ofcourse ultimately everything inevitably exists in one universe or another beucase of the never ending chain of causality and hence the ongoing evolution but universes other than ours WOULD BE DEEMED AS IMAGINARY FROM OUR POINT OF REFERENCE.  But i believe this is a bit too difficult to understand right now. The important point is that anything unproven should not be pursued and never be considered real unless proven. It can stay as a claim or hypothesis yes but that does not mean one should delve into it too much and waste time with it unless theres evidence.

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No, I wasn't. Let's try it again. Prove to me that you exist. That's positive, right?

Peace,
Tay

JK- My existence can be shown by the fact of analysing my writing style and then comparing if other humans write similar. If an aceptable pattern emerges, you can consider im human. If my writing pattern could be traced back to a computer then well id be a computer writing. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

Fadhli

Peace bro JK,

Quote from: jonny_k on March 15, 2008, 12:11:38 PM
JK- 17:36 makes it clear that we dont pusue things for which there is no evidence. Ofcourse ultimately everything inevitably exists in one universe or another beucase of the never ending chain of causality and hence the ongoing evolution but universes other than ours WOULD BE DEEMED AS IMAGINARY FROM OUR POINT OF REFERENCE.  But i believe this is a bit too difficult to understand right now. The important point is that anything unproven should not be pursued and never be considered real unless proven. It can stay as a claim or hypothesis yes but that does not mean one should delve into it too much and waste time with it unless theres evidence.

Seems like you define real evidence as physical huh? Think about this. Even God didn't show physical heaven/hell to us. Unless you've seen and touched one? I'm sure you don't. Also you can't prove physical real evidence that Quran comes from Prophet Muhammad's mouth right? What you can only show is only his companions writings which they say preserved for generations. Which IMHO is not solid evidence. If you believed Quran is preserved by God. Show me the solid evidence. I don't think you can't. It's just the matter of believing and rejecting that it is from God IMHO. So God is just a hypothesis for you then. Good for you.    :pr

For me i don't want to delve too much (thank you JK for reminding), I might got strayed or forget the main purpose because of literally focusing too much on one thing (Quran included). But i believe in His mercy. And that mercy and love is still ongoing, continuous. Just waiting and welcoming for any souls who desires it.

and according to 11:18

FM: And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God? They will be displayed before their Lord, and the witnesses will say: "These are the ones who lied about their Lord." Alas, God's curse will be upon the wicked.

How do we know that you are not lying when you says, that man is delusional? Of course it can't be proved scientifically because you can't. Did Muhammad proved his revelation is from God from scientific evidence? When i mean scientific it is empirically proven. I think not. They just believed. Like us, we believed because it's the word of God and no scientific evidence is capable to support that.

There is some experiments from youtube related to this thing. I think the journey beyond this physical world is gonna be the next evolution of humankind. A lot of people have been able to do this. Some who is considered as a traveler have been travelling and researching this stuff. The key is to be open minded. No negative thoughts.

For those who is interested check this out
Michael Shermer Out of Body Experiment
Virtual out-of-body experience
OBE Experiment
keyword: oobe, astral projection, Lucid dream, NDE, ESP

Peace n thanks for your replies  :handshake:
The truth is, there is no truth...

Tay

Peace Jonny,

QuoteThis maybe the case for backwards or shariah courts but is rationally unacceptable.

Eyewitness testimony is one of the strongest forms of evidence in the justice system. Countless people have been convicted/acquitted because of it. I'm not sure why you're trying to deny this.

QuoteThe father, son and holy ghost, GOD forbid, being three separete, yet essentially the same personifications of GOD.

Yes, I know that the trinity is, however, you mentioned an event and you said people claimed to witness it. What is this event?

QuoteDid you forget to read the previous verse:

The subjects are not the same.

QuoteJK- 17:36 makes it clear that we dont pusue things for which there is no evidence. Ofcourse ultimately everything inevitably exists in one universe or another beucase of the never ending chain of causality and hence the ongoing evolution but universes other than ours WOULD BE DEEMED AS IMAGINARY FROM OUR POINT OF REFERENCE.  But i believe this is a bit too difficult to understand right now. The important point is that anything unproven should not be pursued and never be considered real unless proven. It can stay as a claim or hypothesis yes but that does not mean one should delve into it too much and waste time with it unless theres evidence.

This is a far cry from what you said previously:
For anything to be true you have to present evidence.

I hope you understand the error in this position now.

QuoteMy existence can be shown by the fact of analysing my writing style and then comparing if other humans write similar. If an aceptable pattern emerges, you can consider im human. If my writing pattern could be traced back to a computer then well id be a computer writing.

Or the whole concept of JonnyK and writing styles and other humans could be a figment of my imagination during my dream. You can't really prove otherwise, can you?

Peace,
Tay
And you see the mountains, you think they are solid, while they are passing by like the clouds. The making of God who perfected everything. He is Expert over what you do. [27:88]

jonny_k

Peace "tay",

Quote from: Tay on March 15, 2008, 03:28:55 PM
Peace Jonny,

Eyewitness testimony is one of the strongest forms of evidence in the justice system. Countless people have been convicted/acquitted because of it. I'm not sure why you're trying to deny this.

JK- Sorry to disappoint you. Thats not true. I watch court shows very often here in Germany where realistic events are reenacted. What you maybe saying is that eye witnesses and their testimonies are an important part of the judiciary process. I never denied that. They are. BUT without their statements ending up consitently, as theyr questioned one after the other whilst the latter must not listen to the former, or them being too similar as if they had deliebrately planned an accusation, which would constitute as proof, their testimony is NOT accepted and the accused must be released until further evidence supports hisher guilt.

Quote
Yes, I know that the trinity is, however, you mentioned an event and you said people claimed to witness it. What is this event?

JK- The event is the rising of Jesus from the cross and then him coming back as a spirit and claiming to be Divine as stated in the book of revealtion in the NT.

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The subjects are not the same.

JK- SURE they are related. First the evidence then the witness. They must come together

Quote
This is a far cry from what you said previously:
For anything to be true you have to present evidence.

I hope you understand the error in this position now.

JK- I know what you mean. And ofcourse someone may just utter jibberish or random statements and one of them may turn out to be true. The problem is your taking true in an absolute sense thus shifting the refernce point to someone/something else. However such unknown or unverified truth RELATIVE TO US is not of any use to us at the moment we dont know it. So when i said "true" i meant from OUR i.e. human refernce point. Is this too difficult to understand?

Quote
Or the whole concept of JonnyK and writing styles and other humans could be a figment of my imagination during my dream. You can't really prove otherwise, can you?

Peace,
Tay

JK- This shows youve even failed to understand what proof is. You can with very high probability, BUT YES, NOT with absolute certainty. Proof itself is not an absolute thing. Thats exactly my point and exactly why we can never claim to have the absolute truth. But we can definitely verify things via REPEATED comparison with our perceived external world and hence be satisfied that such and such is so if it does not change during the observation trials. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

jonny_k

Peace "fadhli",

Quote from: Fadhli on March 15, 2008, 01:53:55 PM
Peace bro JK,

Seems like you define real evidence as physical huh? Think about this. Even God didn't show physical heaven/hell to us. Unless you've seen and touched one? I'm sure you don't. Also you can't prove physical real evidence that Quran comes from Prophet Muhammad's mouth right? What you can only show is only his companions writings which they say preserved for generations. Which IMHO is not solid evidence. If you believed Quran is preserved by God. Show me the solid evidence. I don't think you can't. It's just the matter of believing and rejecting that it is from God IMHO. So God is just a hypothesis for you then. Good for you.    :pr

JK- Oh man. The Quran has solid and tangable mathemtical evidence. Now whether you accept that evidence or not is another issue. I must point out at this stage that not all evidence is acceptable to everyone. This is where atheists often go wrong since they claim that proof should be accepted by everyone but this unfortunately is NOT the case mostly because of preconceived notions within those humans. Otherwise why doesnt everyone accept evolution, the big bang, age of the earth, etc for which theres strong physical proof? Further proof for the Quran is the consitency of its staments with the real world and nothing in it ever been falsified. Regarding heaven and hell theres the "omega point theory" by Frank J. Tipler which you might wanna check out. We can hence trust any yet non externally verified BUT AT THE SAME TIME UNFALSFIED atatemnt within the Quran and infact this is what would IMO lead to exponential development.

Quote
For me i don't want to delve too much (thank you JK for reminding), I might got strayed or forget the main purpose because of literally focusing too much on one thing (Quran included). But i believe in His mercy. And that mercy and love is still ongoing, continuous. Just waiting and welcoming for any souls who desires it.

and according to 11:18

FM: And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God? They will be displayed before their Lord, and the witnesses will say: "These are the ones who lied about their Lord." Alas, God's curse will be upon the wicked.

How do we know that you are not lying when you says, that man is delusional? Of course it can't be proved scientifically because you can't. Did Muhammad proved his revelation is from God from scientific evidence? When i mean scientific it is empirically proven. I think not. They just believed. Like us, we believed because it's the word of God and no scientific evidence is capable to support that.

JK- Ofcourse the message of the Quran had to be verified with the real world. Thats why its called "bayyinah(proof)" and theres a whole chapter named like tht in the Quran. The Quran is full of proofs and falsification tests like when GOD asked the Jews to kill themselves and simulataneously said that they will never do it. Should theyve done it the Message of Muhammad wouldve been falsified at the very instant:
[62:6]  Say, "O you who are Jewish, if you claim that you are GOD's chosen, to the exclusion of all other people, then you should long for death if you are truthful!"
[62:7]  They will never long for it, because of what they have committed. GOD is fully aware of the wicked.
I say the man is delusinal because everyone who applied for any sort of paranormal test failed miserably.

Quote
There is some experiments from youtube related to this thing. I think the journey beyond this physical world is gonna be the next evolution of humankind. A lot of people have been able to do this. Some who is considered as a traveler have been travelling and researching this stuff. The key is to be open minded. No negative thoughts.

JK- NOTE "physical" too is a relative term. Suppose you enter a dream from whch you never wake up. The surrounding stuff would be technically labelled as "physical". We know that ultimately all hysical stuff boils down to quantum fluctuations/vibrations. BUT GOD does not violate His Laws. Everything operates within the laws of nature. There is not gonna be a jouney beyond this physical world in our life. For this our bodies and the entire matter needs to disintegrate into quantum fluctuations. Otherwise one cannot leave this universe.

Quote
For those who is interested check this out
Michael Shermer Out of Body Experiment
Virtual out-of-body experience
OBE Experiment
keyword: oobe, astral projection, Lucid dream, NDE, ESP

Peace n thanks for your replies  :handshake:

JK- Thanks for the links but did you see http://youtube.com/watch?v=nCVzz96zKA0 ? GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

Tay

Peace Jonny,

QuoteSorry to disappoint you. Thats not true. I watch court shows very often here in Germany where realistic events are reenacted. What you maybe saying is that eye witnesses and their testimonies are an important part of the judiciary process. I never denied that. They are. BUT without their statements ending up consitently, as theyr questioned one after the other whilst the latter must not listen to the former, or them being too similar as if they had deliebrately planned an accusation, which would constitute as proof, their testimony is NOT accepted and the accused must be released until further evidence supports hisher guilt.

It seems you're disagreeing just to say you disagree, when in fact you agree. What's up with that?

QuoteThe event is the rising of Jesus from the cross and then him coming back as a spirit and claiming to be Divine as stated in the book of revealtion in the NT.

I see...an event that no one can possible say that they witnessed. How is this even in the same ballpark as the video in this thread?

QuoteSURE they are related. First the evidence then the witness. They must come together

The subject in 11:17 is not the same subject in 11:18. Do we need to go through it in steps?

QuoteI know what you mean.

Great, but these next sentences speak otherwise...

QuoteAnd ofcourse someone may just utter jibberish or random statements and one of them may turn out to be true.

Random acts occasionally being true is not what's being discussed. A person's eyewitness account being neither provable nor disprovable, in this case, is what's being discussed.

QuoteThe problem is your taking true in an absolute sense thus shifting the refernce point to someone/something else.

No, the problem is you fabricating an argument to try to strengthen your own. Please point out even a hint of me "taking true in an absolute sense" in this subject matter.

QuoteThis shows youve even failed to understand what proof is. You can with very high probability, BUT YES, NOT with absolute certainty.

You are wrong. The probability of you being part of my dream is actually 50/50 since I'm always either awake or sleeping, and I can't tell the difference. The question was designed to illustrate that you can't bring science into every discussion, this thread included, because it's simply overmatched by things it can't explain.

A nice marriage is humility and science. This type of scientist knows where to draw the line - just as one shouldn't measure Shakespeare with a scale and a word count. You get irrelevant outcomes like .5kg and 15,000 words.

You want to try to undertsand a near-death experience, wait until you have one. Until then, you're shooting in the dark.

Peace,
Tay
And you see the mountains, you think they are solid, while they are passing by like the clouds. The making of God who perfected everything. He is Expert over what you do. [27:88]

jonny_k

Peace "tay",

Quote from: Tay on March 16, 2008, 03:24:27 AM
Peace Jonny,

It seems you're disagreeing just to say you disagree, when in fact you agree. What's up with that?

JK- Huh? Didnt you originally claim that eye witness testimonies ALONE, meaning without their poper evaluation, constitute evidence? That was the point i disagreed with.

Quote
I see...an event that no one can possible say that they witnessed. How is this even in the same ballpark as the video in this thread?

JK- The one in the video also makes a claim that he has witnessed something. And as i said even if he has there are perfectly natural explanations for that. This is the point.

Quote
The subject in 11:17 is not the same subject in 11:18. Do we need to go through it in steps?

JK-  [11:17]  As for those who are given solid proof from their Lord, reported by a witness from Him, and before it, the book of Moses has set a precedent and a mercy, they will surely believe. As for those who disbelieve among the various groups, Hell is awaiting them. Do not harbor any doubt; this is the truth from your Lord, but most people disbelieve.
[11:18]  Who are more evil than those who fabricate lies about GOD? They will be presented before their Lord, and the witnesses* will say, "These are the ones who lied about their Lord. GOD's condemnation has befallen the transgressors."
*Now as GOD already indicated in 11:17 that witnesses report along with solid proof ofcourse we can imply this will always be the case. Besides 11:18 seems to be talking about the DOJ when everything would be in the open anyways i.e. FULL PROOF, so i dont know what your point is.


Quote
Random acts occasionally being true is not what's being discussed. A person's eyewitness account being neither provable nor disprovable, in this case, is what's being discussed.

JK- MAN do you know how many people claim to have witnessed Jesus in person or some other person they are mentally attached to? What should this prove IYO?

Quote
No, the problem is you fabricating an argument to try to strengthen your own. Please point out even a hint of me "taking true in an absolute sense" in this subject matter.

JK- Well i guss then the problem is as big as i originally thought. WHAT KINNA VALUE DOES THIS SO CALLED WITNESS HAVE?

Quote
You are wrong. The probability of you being part of my dream is actually 50/50 since I'm always either awake or sleeping, and I can't tell the difference. The question was designed to illustrate that you can't bring science into every discussion, this thread included, because it's simply overmatched by things it can't explain.

JK- DREAM itself is a relative term. In rare cases one may, whilst in a dream, claim that this is real whilst what is otherwise known as reality, is a dream. A constant dream in which things are stable would be defined as real by the observers within it, inclduing yourself, and youd have to live in it. Youd have to act rationally inside the domain your living. Reality is defined by a domain in which things can be repeated by observers other than yourself and you see them coming to similar conclusions. Dreams are defined as dreams in the first place exactly because they can be distinguished from reality in that theyr unstable with constant fluctuations. AND science can perfectly explain the phenomena regarding such witnesses:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nCVzz96zKA0

Quote
A nice marriage is humility and science. This type of scientist knows where to draw the line - just as one shouldn't measure Shakespeare with a scale and a word count. You get irrelevant outcomes like .5kg and 15,000 words.

JK- As i said science DOES have very good answers for such "witnesses" as you can see in the clip above.

Quote
You want to try to undertsand a near-death experience, wait until you have one. Until then, you're shooting in the dark.

Peace,
Tay

JK- http://youtube.com/watch?v=LAywxhVvLU4
Anyone can have NDEs. The brain releases its own natural drugs, which have a similar efect as string drugs taken externally, and in case of extreme situations such as NDEs it releases a huge number of them causing immense feeling of pleaure and euphoria. YES this exerience is wonerful but all natural. No one ever came back from an NDE along with some verifible prophecies or knowledge of the yet unrevealed like perhaps a new star, a new planet in galaxy x which could later be discovered. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.