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Virgin Birth of Isa

Started by PeterS, January 01, 2008, 10:15:43 AM

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pvb

Christians know Adam started out sinless but was the first man to sin.  Jesus the second sinless man, but the also first completely sinless man.

I know how we got Jesus from Yeshua- greek translaton of that name, but how did Quran get Isa when Christian arabs call Jesus Yeshua?

Soof

Quote from: Samia on July 10, 2008, 02:27:58 PM
Salaam Soof

I totally agree with you, except in the part of "chastity". Don't get me wrong. I do not say that God does not command us to be chaste, but what's being undrestood by the story of Mary is more than chastity. It's celebacy, and this I do not believe God orders us to do. And if the message is to show us that Jesus is human like us, then again it cannot show us at the same time that he is not like us. Already the misunderstanding of adam being a human not born gave him in traditional literature super human abilities such as being very tall or giving the most important birth in the world: of the first female.

Ya I agree. God does not tell us about celebacy, in fact I believe God is against it. God tells us to send something good ahead of ourselves and that men and women are as garments to each other. That we should find peace and tranquility with our spouses. He also tells us our wives are like our fields so go into your fields as you please. All the statements are pro-sex pro-creation as long as its within the bounds of marriage. So if Mary was a sign of celebacy and this was seen as a sign for us to follow - which all of the parables represent: examples to follow - then it would be a startling contradiction or misleading, which is against the nature of the Qur'an. Therefore Mary's sexual career has no relevance at all except for the fact that she "guarded her chastity" not that she died a virgin. Mary is not even called the Virgin Mary in the Recitation, therefore Celibacy is not an issue. If Mary was called the Virgin Mary in the Qur'an then I would have serious doubts...

However with your point you are trying to say that all humans have equal duties or equal powers (unless I misunderstood, sorry). In the Qur'an God is telling us there are people he chose so that they can be signs for all time they may have had powers and more duties than us, they may have had larger burdens and concerns than us. IF Jesus was born without semen at the time then it is by God's will. At this point in time our technology has surpassed our humanity so we can always look to science or experiments and almost denounce things that occur in the Qur'an, we begin to lose respect for "miracles" or the "will of God" because we see miracles performed in science all the time. But we must understand that not one of us on the face of this earth can Create. GOD tells us this, he tells us the sperm we spill out, WE didn't make it, God did. The IVF you talk about, the sperm and ovum used is from God not us. Therefore if God was to create a child from a womb there should be no arguments because ALL we do is from God's creation, every single thing. Even the manipulation of our very genes or the very quarks, leptons neutrinos, all the fundamental particles we have no partaking in their creation. We study them and can bang them together really fast and see what happens, but all we are doing is investigating God's will.

When discussing God's Will or his Acts we must take utmost humility in the matter, because we are only 3-Dimensional beings with limited perceptions and there was a time when we were not even mentioned. We are only His servants given the free will and sentience to investigate and understand.

The point I'm trying to say is if truly Jesus was born without a father then thats IT. God never tells us to marvel at his birth, he tells us to marvel at the alternation of night and day, the livestock we raise and kill, the creation of ourselves. The birth of the Christ is not important therefore if he was born without a father it would not add any EXTRA value to his message. If it was the case then He was a man like us, but was born a different way like Adam. God tells us what He does, we can refute and deny or denounce it, but our own existence is his Will and that is probably the most incredulous thing of all. The act of being. So if God will us into being to our very fingertips, if He willed He could will Jesus to be born from a Virgin, but it does not matter from a Qur'anic point of view. It obviously does from a Christian or Secular-trying-to-disprove-Christianity point of view.

Peace
"Asalaamu Alaikum my brother" - Friend
"No peace be unto you brother, peace be unto you." - Malcolm X

Samia

Quote from: pvb on July 10, 2008, 04:10:17 PM
I know how we got Jesus from Yeshua- greek translaton of that name, but how did Quran get Isa when Christian arabs call Jesus Yeshua?

Arab Christians call him Yasuu3 يسوع , same letters as 3eesa عيسى , with inversions.

Samia

Salaam Soof and all

No one is contesting God's will or ability. The point is that God did not call Mary virgin, nor told us that Jesus did not have a father, so it is not denying God's will or power if we discuss this.

Secondly, God gave example of the believers:  Mary and the wife of the pharoh. What would be the lesson we should learn from Mary? Being chaste is not synonymous of being pious. The rule is that women are chaste until they get married, for fear of God or for fear of the society, the family and/or honour killing. What else would you think of? If I want to follow Mary's example, what should I do? It's easier with the wife of the pharoh: she stood in the face of her powerful husband and fllowed the command of God. Maybe it's the same case with Mary:  she stood in the face of traditions and obeyed the command of God by getting married (a7Sanat farajaha). Remember that a7Sana and Mu7Sana are of the same root, the latter usually means married or can/will be married

belH

Quote from: Samia on July 10, 2008, 08:42:37 PM
nor told us that Jesus did not have a father, so it is not denying God's will or power if we discuss this.


Peace everybody:

Samia, I do not know why you are insisting that God did not say that Jesus had no father.

All the well-established verses show that Jesus was created without a Father.
I also showed two examples, from the Quran, about the creation of Yahia and Jesus (which you did not commont on). And now I will add another example, which the creation of Isacc, the Son of Sara and Ibrahim.

وَٱمۡرَأَتُهُ ۥ قَآٮِٕمَةٌ۬ فَضَحِكَتۡ فَبَشَّرۡنَـٰهَا بِإِسۡحَـٰقَ وَمِن وَرَآءِ إِسۡحَـٰقَ يَعۡقُوبَ (٧١) قَالَتۡ يَـٰوَيۡلَتَىٰٓ ءَأَلِدُ وَأَنَا۟ عَجُوزٌ۬ وَهَـٰذَا بَعۡلِى شَيۡخًا‌ۖ إِنَّ هَـٰذَا لَشَىۡءٌ عَجِيبٌ۬ (٧٢) قَالُوٓاْ أَتَعۡجَبِينَ مِنۡ أَمۡرِ ٱللَّهِ‌ۖ رَحۡمَتُ ٱللَّهِ وَبَرَكَـٰتُهُ ۥ عَلَيۡكُمۡ أَهۡلَ ٱلۡبَيۡتِ‌ۚ إِنَّهُ ۥ حَمِيدٌ۬ مَّجِيدٌ۬ (٧٣)

And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: but We gave her glad tidings of Isaac, and after him of Jacob. (71) She said: "Alas for me! Shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a Incredible  thing!" (72) They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you, O ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of all praise, full of all glory!" (11-73)

Quote from: belalhammad on July 08, 2008, 10:01:20 PM
Samia, I would like to share with you and everybody another Signs from the Quran regarding Jesus Birth without a Father.
There are two true stories, in the Quran, about Zakaria and Mary in Chapter 3 as follow:

In the Case of Zakaria:

فَنَادَتۡهُ ٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةُ وَهُوَ قَآٮِٕمٌ۬ يُصَلِّى فِى ٱلۡمِحۡرَابِ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُبَشِّرُكَ
بِيَحۡيَىٰ مُصَدِّقَۢا بِكَلِمَةٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ وَسَيِّدً۬ا وَحَصُورً۬ا وَنَبِيًّ۬ا مِّنَ ٱلصَّـٰلِحِينَ (٣٩)
While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet of the company of the righteous." (3-39)

In the Case of Mary:
إِذۡ قَالَتِ ٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةُ يَـٰمَرۡيَمُ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ۬ مِّنۡهُ ٱسۡمُهُ ٱلۡمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبۡنُ مَرۡيَمَ وَجِيهً۬ا فِى ٱلدُّنۡيَا وَٱلۡأَخِرَةِ وَمِنَ ٱلۡمُقَرَّبِينَ (٤٥)
Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah give thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (45)

Conclusion:
Both Zakaria and Mary were given glad tidings by the Angels.
Zakaria was about a Son by the name of Yahia and Mary a Son by the name of Jesus.
Yahia witnessing (Believing) the truth of a Word from Allah.
Jesus is a Word of Allah. Thus, Yahia will be a believer and witness of Jesus.


In the Case of Zakaria:

قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لِى غُلَـٰمٌ۬ وَقَدۡ بَلَغَنِىَ ٱلۡڪِبَرُ وَٱمۡرَأَتِى عَاقِرٌ۬ۖ قَالَ كَذَٲلِكَ ٱللَّهُ يَفۡعَلُ مَا يَشَآءُ (٤٠)
He said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren? He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah do what he willth (wants, wishes)." (3-40)

In the Case of Mary:

(٤٦) قَالَتۡ رَبِّ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لِى وَلَدٌ۬ وَلَمۡ يَمۡسَسۡنِى بَشَرٌ۬ۖ قَالَ ڪَذَٲلِكِ ٱللَّهُ يَخۡلُقُ مَا يَشَآءُۚ إِذَا قَضَىٰٓ أَمۡرً۬ا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ ۥ كُن فَيَكُونُ (٤٧)
She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said (the Angel): "Doth Allah createth what He willeth (wants, wishes); when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it `Be', and it is! (47)

Conclusion:
Zakaria said ?how can I have a Son when: a) I?m an Old Man, b) My Wife is Barren (can?t have a baby).
Mary said ?how can I have a Son when: a) No Men has Touched Me.
The Angel answered Zakaria by Saying ?Allah DO What He Wishes?
The Angel answered Mary by Saying ?Allah CREATES What He Wishes by using BE-AND- IT-IS? METHOD. (it is the same method he Created Adam with)


now, can you draw an honst conclusion that God and his Angles will witness; and then share it with us.

And know that well-esablished verses show the meaning of non-well-established verses (that is how Quran should be understood).




Samia

Salaam Belal

The story of Moses was the most told one, yet no mention whatsoever of his father. Even when his mother was directed by God to throw him in the river, the description of sadness was the sadness of his mother 28:10, and the promise of God to return him to his mother was so that she would be happy (not his parents) 28:13; 20:40. We followed the story of Moses since he was a toddler, his marriage and until he became messenger and an old man, but nothing about his father. Same thing with Ibrahim, no mention of the mother. The examples you drew is of prophets having chilren who were prophets also. Maybe it's just that the parent who has no role (whether positive or negative) on the life of the prophet is just simply ignored. And yes, God did not tell us that Jesus did not have a father, otherwise this thread - and other ones- would not have continued this long. If it was important, God would have mentioned it explicitly as He does with all the other miracles which were mentioned in details, especially that nobody was born without parents before or after. Even adam had parents and was not the first human, but the first "insan". And Eve/the female was not created from adam's rib.

marie

Peace,

I am sorry if I repeat what was already said by other members.

I have asked the brother Ayman’s view about my first message in this thread (p10), he said :

Quote from: AymanOne thing you might want to consider in the god's laws is that we are told that we should call children after their fahers. Why is Isa called son of Mary, after his mother?

My answer is:
QuoteThe word 'abaihim' included the fathers and / or the mothers.
In 4 :11, we read, abawayhi wich imply the mother and the father. The same word is used in 12:99
Falamma dakhaloo AAala yoosufaawa ilayhi abawayhi waqala odkhuloo misrain shaa Allahu amineena

Best regards.

Marie ;)
And He is the God, there is no god but He.
[url="http://hanif.free.fr/"]http://hanif.free.fr/[/url]

belH

Quote from: Samia on July 11, 2008, 03:34:08 AM
Salaam Belal

The story of Moses was the most told one, yet no mention whatsoever of his father. Even when his mother was directed by God to throw him in the river, the description of sadness was the sadness of his mother 10:28, and the promise of God to return him to his mother was so that she would be happy (not his parents) 13:28; 20:40. We followed the story of Moses since he was a toddler, his marriage and until he became messenger and an old man, but nothing about his father. Same thing with Ibrahim, no mention of the mother.

Salam everybody

True, Moses Father and Mother had no problem in having kids, nor Moses were called the son of God; thus Moses story was not revealed to clairfy misunderstandings.

Quote from: Samia on July 11, 2008, 03:34:08 AM
The examples you drew is of prophets having chilren who were prophets also. Maybe it's just that the parent who has no role (whether positive or negative) on the life of the prophet is just simply ignored.

The three stories that I mentioned were about three cases in which "Having a baby were not possible (according to human common sense).
In the Storey of Ibrahim and Sara: Ibrahim was an Old Man and Sara a Barren Old Woman. The porn Son was a Prophet
In the Story of Zakaria and his wife: Zakaria was an Old Man and his Wife was Barren Women. The porn Son Was a Prophet
In the Story of Mary (no male mentioned): Mary was not Married nor touched by a Men. The Porn Son Was "A WORD OF GOD" "A SIGN OF GOD"
Only in the case of Mary Story, the Angles replied to her (after she was questioning the possibility of having a Baby), by Saying "GOD CREATES WHAT HE WISHES IN THE WAY HE WISHES (BE-AND-IT-IS Method).

Therefore, the conclusion from such stories matches with the well-established verses. The well-established verses that show the Story of Mary pregnancy and her delivering of her baby under the Tree, and her approaching of her people when carrying a Baby while she was not a married woman. (Please note that if she had a husband, he would have showed up to protect her reputation, and God would have mentioned him in such case or another case (such as being a coward husband).
Moreover, when God used Adam as an example of Jesus creation, it shows a conclusion that would match with the well-established verses; also, when God calls Jesus by ?the Son of Mary? in many verses, my conclusion matches with the well-established verses.

As I told you before, and Arnold, and others, If you use the Modern Science theory that indicate ?There are no Miracles in our universe? to interpret the Quran, you will be rejecting many Well-established- Verses that show God direct intervention in his universe?the Miracles.  You will be using non-well-established-verses to interpret the well-established ones; and the result will be distorting will-established Quranic meanings.
This is my true advice to you and others, be aware of such a great Sin that we can commit unintentionally.

Peace


jaythikay99

Peace everyone,

Don't you find it strange that how Zakaria was earnestly praying to God for a son and when his prayers were answered"GOD gives you good news of John", suddenly Zakaria reminded God "how is it possible I am old and my wife is barren as well", like God didn't know that before or Zakaria himself didn't know God can do anything... ::)

TheNabi

Peace Hamsa

If you'll note God tends to be underestimated [22/73-74; 25/3].

Someone mentioned about direct intervention with God and I should like to say that God always has a hand in all things. God does not just decide to intervene here and there for the performance of "miracles". He is the straw that stirs the drink.

Joe
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek for verification & knowledge. ~> [3/190-191; 17/