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Quran inheritance mistake

Started by Onur, December 31, 2007, 12:44:40 AM

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Onur

There is a problem in Quran's verses 4:11-12.  4:11-12 specify the rules of inheritance in the absence of a will. The contradiction is that when a man dies leaving three daughters, one mother, one father and one wife, the sum of shares that Quran gives exceed 1 and hence not enough wealth would exist to carry out Quran`s command. I will first explain this contradiction and then discuss 4 (proposed) Muslim solutions to the problem. Before responding to this post, please read all of my post because it is probable that I already discuss the solution that you have in mind. I will show that all the proposed solutions are not really solutions but possible ways to "correct" Quran?s mistake. I sincerely hope that you can prove me wrong and restore my faith.

Let us look at the verses using Quran: A Reformist Translation.

4:11   God directs you regarding the
inheritance of your children, "To the
male shall be as that given to two
females. If they are only females and
more than two, then they will have two
thirds of what is inherited. If there is
only one female, then she will have one half,
and to his parents each one of them
one sixth of what is inherited if he has
children. If he has no children and his
parents are the heirs, then to his mother
is one third; if he has siblings then to his
mother is one sixth. All after a will is
carried through or a debt. Your parents
and your children, you do not know
which is closer to you in benefit, a
directive from God, God is
Knowledgeable, Wise."*

4:12 For you is half of what your wives leave
behind if they have no children; but if
they have a child then to you is one
quarter of what they leave behind. All
after a will is carried through or a debt.
To them is one quarter of what you leave
behind if you have no child; but if you
have a child then to them is one eighth of
what you leave behind. All after a will is
carried through or a debt. If a man or a
woman has no one, but has a brother or
sister, then to each one of them is one
sixth, but if they are more than this then
they are to share in one third. All after a
will is carried through or a debt, which
does not cause harm. A directive from
God, and God is Knowledgeable,
Compassionate.*

Now if a man dies leaving three daughters, one mother, one father and one wife, the shares are as follows. Three daughters should get 2/3 of the inheritance in accordance with,  ?If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two
thirds of what is inherited?. Since the man has children, both the mother and father get 1/6 in accordance with, ? and to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children.? And according to 4:12, the wife should get 1/8 of the inheritance in accordance with, ?  if you have a child then to them is one eighth of
what you leave behind.? If we add these shares up, we get 1.125 instead of 1:  2/3 + 1/6+1/6+1/8=1.125

?Solution? 1: Edip Yuksel

In his endnote on these verses, Edip Yuksel sustains that we should compare the fractions with each other under a common denominator and find new fractions to divide the inheritance by neglecting the denominator. Let us see how this works for our case. The fractions are 2/3, 1/6, 1/6, 1/8. When we equalize the denominator(for example when we make 24 denominator for each) we get 16/24, 4/24, 4/24, 3/24.
Yuksel suggest that we then neglect the denominator and solve for X in 16X + 4X + 4X + 3X= Total Inheritance. If inheritance is 27 golds, for example, then three daughters would get 16 golds, mother would get 4 golds, father would get 4 golds, and wife would get 3 golds. New shares become 16/27 for three daughters, 4/27 for the father, 4/27 for the mother and 3/27 for the wife.

I want to draw your attention to the fact that the way Quran talks about the shares does not allow Yuksel`s method. Quran does not say, ? three daughters should get 2/3, parents should each get 1/6 and wife should get 1/8.?  Neither does Quran say, ? the shares for three daughters are 2/3, shares for each parent are 1/6, share for the wife 1/8.?  Quran is saying that three daughters should get 2/3 of the inheritance, etc. In other words, Quran has fixed the shares from the whole inheritance. To give an example: In Edip Yuksel?s solution, three daughters are getting 16/27. Well, 16/27 of the inheritance is not 2/3 of the inheritance. If there were 27 golds, the daughters  should have gotten 18 golds(2/3 of the inheritance). Yuksel gives them 16 golds. Well, if the daughters go to the court for their 2 golds, they have a solid ground( ?we were promised 2/3 of the 18 golds?). The judge would say that it is not their fault that the author of the Quran made a mistake.

Now that we established that Quran's language does not allow Yuksel?s method, let us still evalute Edip Yuksel?s reasons for his method(please see the endnote in the Reformist Translation). I want to stress that this part is not necessary for my argument since I have already established that given the language Quran uses Yuksel?s solution does not have a Quranic ground. Let me still carry on with his argument however. He argues that if we do not use this method, we cannot distribute the whole inheritance in most cases. Now, Yuksel bases his assertion on the fact that Quran wants us to distribute the whole inheritance without any remainders. Well, Quran never commands that the whole inheritance should be distributed( in fact, if you look at 4:176, you can see that Quran welcomes the remainder in the case where there is only one sister to inherit the wealth). Leaving this aside, the problem is not that we have remainders but rather that we have an excess. That is, the fractions add up to more than one.

?Solution? 2: Shabir Ally and Walad

Shabir Ally argues that the whole problem stems from translating the Arabic word 'walad' wrongly (http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=245). 'Walad' should be translated, Shabir Ally argues, as ?one child?. Let us see how this argument works. Ally proposes that the verses should be translated as follows.

4:11 God advises you regarding the inheritance of your children: "To the male the share of two females. If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two thirds of the inheritance. And if there is only one female, then she will have one half, and to his parents each one of them one sixth of the inheritance if he has one child(walad). If he has not any child and his parents are the heirs, then to his mother is one third; if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth. All after a will is carried through or a debt. Your parents and your children, you do not know which is closer to you in benefit, a directive from God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

4:12 And for you is half of what your wives leave behind if they have no child; but if they have one child (walad)then to you is one quarter of the inheritance. All after a will is carried through or a debt. And to them is one quarter of what you leave behind if you have no child; but if you have one child(walad) then to them is one eighth of what you leave behind. All after a will is carried through or a debt. And if a man or a woman has no one, but has a brother or sister, then to each one of them is one sixth, but if they are more than this then they are to share in one third. All after a will is carried through or a debt, which does not cause harm. A directive from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.


Shabir Ally?s claim is as follows:  waladun is one child:  in other words, mother, father and wives get certain shares if there is only one child. In our problematic case, there are 3 daughters and hence more than one child. Therefore, mother, father and wife should not get any shares. Only 3 daughters get 2/3 and that is all. The rest remains undistributed.Hence no problem of shares exceeding 1.

Well, the only way I can respond to this claim is to say that absolutely no English translation has rendered waladun as `one child`. Some have said ?a child.?  But ? a child? does not always mean ?one child.?  When I say to you, ? If you have a child, then you know what responsibility means,?  I am obviously not saying that you know what responsibility means if you have only 1 child and not more.  Look at the following Quran translations to see that none of them uses the expression `one child`: Free Minds, The Reformist, Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Muhammed and Samira Ahmad, Rashad Khalifa etc.

Solution 3   says that three daughters get their share from whatever is left after others get their shares.  Quran never says that parents and spouses get their shares first and three daughters get their shares from whatever is left after mother, father and wife get their shares. Quran says that three daughters get 2/3 of the whole inheritance.

Solution 4 is in Submission.org and it is even weaker than solution 3( http://www.submission.org/answering-Islam.htm#ss) They claim that 2/3 is not the share of only 3 daughters but 3 daughters plus the wife. They quote Khalifa?s translation of 4:11: ?GOD decrees a will for the benefit of your children; the male gets twice the share of the female. If the inheritors are only women, more than two, they get two-thirds of what is bequeathed......?  Let me quote them: ?According to the Quran, 4:11, the wife and the daughters (who are the primary inheritor of a man) will get 2/3 of his estate and the parents will get 1/3 and this adds  up to a perfect ONE.  4:12  details that the wife will get 1/8 of the estate but this is not a separate portion of the total of 2/3 that all the females will inherit from the man's estate in case a man dies leaving behind more than two female inheritors. There is no contradiction here and the numbers do add PERFECTLY.? 
First of all, from where do they get that idea that wife( and curiously not the mother who is also a female)  is included in the 2/3 share that is assigned to the daughters? Let us look at the literal translation of the verse. It says, "God directs you regarding the inheritance of your children: To the male shall be as that given to two females. If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two thirds of what is inherited. And if there is only one female, then she will have one half....."
All this part deals with the inheritance of children and nothing else. Notice that in the beginning it says "God directs you regarding the inheritance of your children" When this part finishes, the verse starts talking about the inheritance of parents. 2/3 is clearly the share of daughters when they are more than two. If Submission.org?s  understanding was correct and "females" in the beginning of the second sentence referred not just to daughters but to all females, if there was just one female inheritor she would have to get 1/2.  But then it would not make sense to specify the shares of wives and mothers who are obviously females getting different shares than 1/2.
If I tell you, " I am making a recommendation to you about the candidates to the job. If females and more than two....." you would immediately know that the second sentence refers to the female candidates. Similarly when Quran says " God advises you about your children that the share of a male is twice the share of two females. If females and more than two......" everyone knows that the second sentence refers to children when they are female and more than two. Let me repeat:  the sentence continues," if only one female, then to her one half."  Clearly, this sentence is also about children.
If Submission.org was right, then it would mean that if there is only female inheritor, she would get one half. That does not make sense at all because shares of the mother and women(who are obviously females) are different than 1/2

Conclusion: All attempts to find a solution fail. Contradiction remains.

Please either show that my reasoning is wrong or the translation of verses is wrong or propose another solution with a Quranic ground.
Thank you

Nun de plume

Quote from: Onur on December 31, 2007, 12:44:40 AM
Now if a man dies leaving three daughters, one mother, one father and one wife, the shares are as follows. Three daughters should get 2/3 of the inheritance in accordance with,  ?If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two
thirds of what is inherited?. Since the man has children, both the mother and father get 1/6 in accordance with, ? and to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children.? And according to 4:12, the wife should get 1/8 of the inheritance in accordance with, ?  if you have a child then to them is one eighth of
what you leave behind.? If we add these shares up, we get 1.125 instead of 1:  2/3 + 1/6+1/6+1/8=1.125

Quran is saying that three daughters should get 2/3 of the inheritance, etc. In other words, Quran has fixed the shares from the whole inheritance.

Conclusion: All attempts to find a solution fail. Contradiction remains.

Please either show that my reasoning is wrong or the translation of verses is wrong or propose another solution with a Quranic ground.
Thank you


One of these baby algebra and supposed contradictions pops every other month. lol

In verse 4:11 2/3 or ? only apply in cases when there are no sons (i.e. if # of females = > 2 they get 2/3; if one she gets 1/2).

Equation is set equal to 1 in ALL CASES for it can never be greater than the whole.

Let x = unit of distribution ordained by God in this particular case, thus equation becomes?

1/8x + 1/6x + 1/6x + 2/3x = 1
3/24x + 4/24x + 4/24x + 16/24x = 1
27/24x = 1
x = 24/27

Daughters get 2/3 * 24/27 = 16/27 divided equally amongst the 3 of them
Wife gets 1/8 * 24/27 = 3/27
Father gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27
Mother gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27

Math check: 16/27 + 3/27 + 4/27 + 4/27 = 27/27 = 1 (i.e. the whole)



Another similar example: A woman dies leaving husband, mother, father, and daughter. 

4:11 says ? husband gets ?, mother 1/6, father 1/6, and only daughter gets ? thus the na?ve would again see a contradiction adding greater than 1.

? + 1/6 + 1/6 + ? = 13/12 > 1

Proper way is to let variable x = unit of distribution ordained by God for this case...

1/4x + 1/6x + 1/6x + 1/2x = 1
13/12x = 1
x = 12/13

Daughter gets 1/2 * 12/13 = 6/13
Husband gets 1/4 * 12/13 = 3/13
Father gets 1/6 * 12/13 = 2/13
Mother gets 1/6 * 12/13 = 2/13

Math check: 6/13 + 3/13 + 2/13 + 2/13 = 1 (i.e. the whole)


?Solution? 1: Edip Yuksel had it correct and it's literally "so for them (F) two thirds what he left,"


:peace:



Samia

Salaam Nun

Where did you get this from?
QuoteIn verse 4:11 2/3 or ? only apply in cases when there are no sons
The whole verse (4:11) speaks of "children": males and females: In case there is one , two or more females AMONG the children. No verse is set if there were only males or females, because that is too obvious: divide equally.

To Onur

If they are just females, the 2/3 does not apply. They get all the remainder. Verse 4:11 speaks of the case when only children are left. You will have a problem applying it if you have two females and a male AND anymore heir, because these three will consume the whole inheritence.

The correct calculation is to give the parents and the wife their shares, then the three girls will have the remainder divided by them in equal shares.

Nun de plume

Quote from: Samia on December 31, 2007, 04:58:54 AM
Salaam Nun

Where did you get this from?The whole verse (4:11) speaks of "children": males and females: In case there is one , two or more females AMONG the children. No verse is set if there were only males or females, because that is too obvious: divide equally.


Salaam Samia, here we go again... ;D

Never mind that part, it's late and I haven't slept all night.

Onur

Dear Nun de plume,

As you know, I already anticipated your solution. You say `it is literally 2/3 the inheritance'
Well, is 16/27 the inheritance equal to 2/3 the inheritance
? Or did you just correct Quran's mistake with algebra setting the whole equation to 1 and ignoring the denominator?

If the Quran had used the following language then your solution would be satisfactory:
" For every 2/3 share of three daughters, parents each get 1/6 and wife gets 1/8 " Or if the Quran had said," The shares for distribution are 2/3 for three daughters , 1/6 each parent and 1/8 for the wife" your solution would be OK too.
But Quran is saying 2/3 what he leaves(that is the total inheritance), 1/6 from what he leaves(the total inheritance), etc
In other words, Quran has fixed the shares from the total inheritance. Whereas, you just compare the shares with each other. An interesting and pragmatic solution but unfortunately it does not save the Quran.
Unless you can show me that 2/3 the inheritance is not equal to 2/3 of the inheritance.
 

Nun de plume

Dearest Onur,

Quote from: Onur on December 31, 2007, 02:41:25 PM

But Quran is saying 2/3 what he leaves(that is the total inheritance), 1/6 from what he leaves(the total inheritance), etc

No, (that is the total inheritance) are your words and assumptions.

Qur?an says 2/3 WHAT HE LEFT not 2/3 OF THE TOTAL INHERITANCE.

YOU say girls get 2/3 OF inheritance; in English OF means times; thus?
Girls get 2/3 * inheritance

Qur?an says girls get 2/3 WHAT he left which means in proportion to the whole as compared to all the other inheritors; this unit which we?ll call x ordained by God for this particular case needs to be first calculated, thus?

1/4x + 1/6x + 1/6x + 1/2x = 1 (i.e. the whole)
x = 24/27

4:11 ..."so for them (F) two thirds what he left,"

2/3 * 24/27 = 16/27 divided equally amongst the 3 of them

Another example to clarify: Only 3 daughters
YOU say girls get 2/3 OF the total inheritance meaning:
Girls get 2/3 * inheritance = 2/3
Remaining 1/3 goes to unknown?

Qur?an says girls get 2/3 WHAT he left in proportion to the whole as compared to all the others; this unit which we?ll call x again is calculated thus?

2/3x (girls share) + 0 (others) = 1
x = 3/2

"so for them (F) two thirds what he left,"
2/3 * 3/2 = 1 (i.e. the whole) divided equally amongst the 3 of them

Equation is set equal to 1 in ALL CASES and works perfectly for ALL CASES!

Do you really believe God would reveal something so easily trounced with countless examples or the absurd logic of 1+1+1 = 1 or God needs to pray to God?

Happy New Year!

Peace



Onur

Dear Nun de Plume,

I am hoping that you are right. But, I have question marks. Quran is literally saying "2/3 what he leaves." Now, you turn that statement into " 2/3 what he leaves in proportion to the whole as compared to all the others."
What is your justification for this?  This is my first question to you.As an answer to your question, if there are just three daughters to inherit, according to Quran they would get 2/3 and the remaining 1/3 would go to the poor and needy in accordance with the verse 4:8
Furthermore, Quran does not necessarily want the whole inheritance to be distributed. If you look at 4:176, in the case where there is only brother to inherit he gets full inheritance. If there is only one sister to inherit, Quran consciously leaves 1/2 undistributed, as a remainder.

My second question to you is the following. If there are 3 sons, 1 daughter, 1 mother, 1 father and 1 wife
the distribution would be perfect because first the shares of mother, father and wife would be given and the rest would be distributed among the sons and daughters in such a way that the each son gets twice as the daughter.
If you do this distribution, you will see that in distributing the money among the mother, father and wife you
cannot apply your algebraic method. If you had done that, you would distribute the whole inheritance(because you set the whole equation equal to 1)  and nothing would be left for the children. The point is that you cannot apply your algebraic method in all cases.

But, my first question is the most important: Given that Quran does not necessarily want the whole inheritance to be distributed, How do you justify making `2/3 the inheritance` equal to `2/3 the inheritance in a comparison with other shares`? In fact, to remind you again, my problem is not about the remainders but about the excess-when fractions add up to more than one.

Onur






OPF

When I went through it I found it all added up perfectly but always left a small surplus. No use of any algebraic unknowns, just pure addition of proportions.

Wakas

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Nun de plume

Greetings Onur,

Quote from: Onur on December 31, 2007, 05:20:27 PM
I am hoping that you are right. But, I have question marks. Quran is literally saying "2/3 what he leaves." Now, you turn that statement into " 2/3 what he leaves in proportion to the whole as compared to all the others."
What is your justification for this?  This is my first question to you.

WHAT (?) is asking something to be defined in any language, right?

?2/3 WHAT he leaves? is not same as definite ?2/3 OF THE inheritance.?

Quote
As an answer to your question, if there are just three daughters to inherit, according to Quran they would get 2/3 and the remaining 1/3 would go to the poor and needy in accordance with the verse 4:8

The daughters get the whole and 4:8 says nothing about remaining ? it?s only a reminder to be charitable...

4:8 And if of the relations, and the orphans, and the poorest of poor/poor oppressed attended the apportionment/division, so provide for them from it, and say to them a saying (that is) kind/good.


QuoteFurthermore, Quran does not necessarily want the whole inheritance to be distributed. If you look at 4:176, in the case where there is only brother to inherit he gets full inheritance. If there is only one sister to inherit, Quran consciously leaves 1/2 undistributed, as a remainder.

The one sister gets the whole thing?

4:176 They ask your opinion/clarification , say: "God decrees/decides in the man or woman without a son/father , if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her half (of) what he left, and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child, and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brothers (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal/alike (the) share (of) the two females, God clarifies for you that (E) you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.


x = WHAT (variable to be defined) in proportion to the whole compared to all the others.

? x (sister?s share) + 0 (others) = 1
x = 2

?so for her half (of) what he left?


? * 2 = 1 (i.e. she gets the whole inheritance)