Author Topic: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...  (Read 76920 times)

dotty

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2008, 06:14:32 PM »
Blessings to you mr. humble,

I do not wish to say bad things to you, but I do wonder if you feel all human beings are sinners?  If so, then wouldn't it make sense that the ones who collected the hadiths/sunnah fall into the same category as all human beings and errors will be made? 

What started me on the path of depending on the Quran alone was simple... if God wanted us to follow anything the prophet did, God would have surely given it to us the same way He gave us the Quran (divine revelation) and protected it just the same.  As jonny_k pointed out, there are many places in the Quran that already have sayings of the prophet.  Why would God include those and leave the rest for human beings to collect?  It makes sense to me that the sayings in the Quran are the ones God wants us to follow.  Anything else is irrelevant or it would be in the Quran. 

If the sunnah was so important for mankind to follow it would have been available to all people immediately upon the prophets death... not a couple hundred years later.  What did the masses of people (all over the world) do from the time of the prophets death until the hadith/sunnah were collected and preached as necessary to be muslim?
 
Just me thinking...

peace,
dotty

Soof

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2008, 06:18:11 PM »
You should ask people where is the Hadith of Abraham or Moses or Joseph and the other messengers as they are all faithful Servants of God who were examples to follow and whom God bestowed peace upon as well. God constantly gives praise and from my translation of the Qur'an even sounds proud of the messengers before Muhammad. Why aren't people running around collecting sayings of them as well?

Peace be upon the messengers and glory be to Allah the Lord of the Worlds.
"Asalaamu Alaikum my brother" - Friend
"No peace be unto you brother, peace be unto you." - Malcolm X

Soof

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #92 on: July 21, 2008, 06:34:57 PM »
The reality of the situation is all the necessary examples of the messengers are in the Qur'an. Those who follow what they have no knowledge of, who follow the example of a fallible man from HISTORICAL accounts and heresay will find all they need and live their life by what they want. That's how it is. Peace be upon them.

That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does God set forth for men their lessons by similitudes.
47:3

And now We have sent revelation to thee, enjoining, 'Follow the way of Abraham who was ever inclined to God and was not of those who set up equals to Him.'
16:123 (WHERES HIS HADITH?!)

Say, 'Then bring a Book from God which is a better guide than these two books -- the Torah and the Qur'an -- that I may follow it, if you are truthful.' But if they answer thee not, then know that they only follow their own evil desires. And who is more erring than he who follows his evil desires without any guidance from God. Verily, God guides not the wrongdoing people.
28:49

But the bottom line is you cannot make the dead hear, you cannot make the deaf hear when they turn around and walk away, you cannot make the blind see. Who can give someone light when God has taken away His light? Are we to kill ourselves over ignorance?


"Asalaamu Alaikum my brother" - Friend
"No peace be unto you brother, peace be unto you." - Malcolm X

AlFajr

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #93 on: July 21, 2008, 09:35:23 PM »

truth: it is superbly unlikely that the Sahih Hadith is a conspiracy... they are things he said as they NEVER contradict the quran. at least give me a hadith which DIRECTLY contradict the quran. i would really appreciate your feedback!

What about the hadith where the punishment for adultary was eaten by a goat?
No matter how far you have gone down the wrong path, turn around.
Some helpful links.

http://corpus.quran.com/
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

jonny_k

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #94 on: July 22, 2008, 03:16:19 AM »
Peace "mr. humble",

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jhonnyk, assalamualaikum(may peace be on you),

1.

all the verses you quoted were alhamdulillah great info, however, they are not info about the Prophet(PBUH)'s life!!! like the battle of uhud, his reltionships with abu bakr, omar(may allah be pleased with them all), his encounter with ansar... are they in quran?? you are evading the topic.

JK- WE DONT NEED TO KNOW ABT ALL THOSE. If GOD wanted that Hed have documented that int he Quran and leave no confusion. THIS is exactly our point here. You want more and more details and in this way itd never end anyways as you can keep asking for more. Dont you see that this is nonsense?

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2. prove to me the scientific infallibillity of this sahih hadith, has this been tested in the lab?  has this been tried? if that hadith was false... then why do billions of people throughout history still hold on strong to the sunnah of the prophet thus fulfilling the command of Allah from the Quran.

JK- First of all regarding the fly you can ask any scietist in the world, whos not a sunni/shia sectarian, that if a fly fell into a drink and it is dipped in further all the harmful germs disappear and see what he says. Then youll perhaps see what nonsense this is. AS for millions of people holding unto the sunnah, there are also MANY MORE people holding unto the view that th earth is 6000 years old i.e. young earth creationism. Does it make them right? On the contrary all of these people are backward and the ones following the "sunnah" are amongst the MOST BACKWARD PPPL ON THE PLANET. As soon as they leave the so called "sunnah" and come to the Quran Alone, they progress. Infact the progress one makes is INVERSELY proportional to the amount of "sunnah" one follows.

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Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i e. the treatment for that disease."

JK- There are EVEN MORE hadith which contradict science clearly. Like:

The hellfire complained to Allah, "One part of me is eating the other part." So, the hellfire was allowed two breaths - one in summer and one in winter. That is how you see the change of seasons (Bukhari, Beginning of Creation 2:231).

The Prophet said, "But for the Israelis, meat would not decay and but for Eve, wives would never betray their husbands."(Bukhari 4:547,611)

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truth: it is superbly unlikely that the Sahih Hadith is a conspiracy... they are things he said as they NEVER contradict the quran. at least give me a hadith which DIRECTLY contradict the quran. i would really appreciate your feedback!

JK- FIRST id like to say even if hadith did not contradict the Quran theres something known as "biddah" or innovation. Even today one can easily make up statements in the name of GOD which do not contradict the Quran. Eg GOD, GOD forbid, said that always focus especially on these three subjects in school; geography, history and literature. Or do not take red traffic lights lightly.

NOW the hadith to kill apostates as i quoted, directly contradict the Quran which says "theres be no compulsion in religion".
Also:
I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people" (Bukhary 97/36).
Since the Quran says not make any distinction amongst GOD's messengers.


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maybe you do not follow hadith because you failed to benefit from it, did you know that it has been scientifically proven that using miswaak has many many benefits for the teeth and breath.. in addition, it adds great taste to your mouth? and there is no mention of it in the quran.

JK- First point to note is that if there are thousands of hadith some ought to be right but this is nothing special. If you get me the quotes of aristotle or pythagoras, who lioved long before Muhammad, they also got many things right. Look at pythagoras theorem and that actually serves as a basis for modern technology till today and probably always will. So what is special about this hadith even if it were true? If hadith can be wrong and right then GOD asking us to follow them is equivalent to asking us to follow our own desires(as wer cherry picking anyways). Infact it would be better if we followed pythagoras or some greek philosopher's saysings which are far less ridiculous than the hadith collection.
NOW also again ive to ask you how many non sunni/shia scientists whor specialized int he field of dental care agree that the miswaak is more useful than a modern tooth brush? This is ridiculous since the miswaak does not reach all the corners of the teeth properly like the specially designed tooth brushes and it also can damage the flesh more.

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Allah talks about honey in quran, but the proper usage of it is greatly detailed in collections of ahadith(how Prophet(PBUH) used it, so his followers would follow suit)).

JK- Again the same thing. Nothing special. We in our age know to use honey even better. All that GOD wanted is us to show a sign with honey from which then we ourselves can work our way up. ALSO your forgetting im not saying that hadith cannot be read and if theres some +ve things we adopt them to our lives. The pt is DONT FOLLOW THEM AS RELGIOUS INSTRUCTIONS OR MAKE THEM DIVINE because theyr not. And infact many of them are far less beneficial then we find from as i said greek philosophers who came before Muhammad's time.

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have you not realized that Mohammad(PBUH) is a mercy to the whole of humankind??? Quran 21:107

JK- Muhammad WAS sent as a mercy to mankind just as Jesus was also a mercy to people:
[19:21]  He said, "Thus said your Lord, `It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.' "

The word "'alameen" cannot refer to all nations in all time otherwise if you make that claim then you encounter the folowing problems:

[3:42]  The angels said, "O Mary, GOD has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you from all the women('ala nisaa al'alameen).

So would you agree that "Mary" stands even abov the Prophet muhammad's wives?

[6:83]  Such was our argument, with which we supported Abraham against his people. We exalt whomever we will to higher ranks. Your Lord is Most Wise, Omniscient.
[6:84]  And we granted him Isaac and Jacob, and we guided both of them. Similarly, we guided Noah before that, and from his descendants (we guided) David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. We thus reward the righteous.
[6:85]  Also, Zachariah, John, Jesus, and Elias; all were righteous.
[6:86]  And Ismail, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each of these we distinguished over all the people(al 'alameen).

So were these messengers better than all others including Muhammad?

[37:79]  Peace be upon Noah among the peoples(al-'alameen).

So this would mean that "Noah" received most peace of all messengers even more than Muhammad. Would you agree with that?
It should be clear by now that "al 'alamen" when referring to any individual means only in the particular era in which they WERE ALIVE and not for all times. Thus Muhammad was indeed a mercy for all nations as he lived. When he died he left behind the Quran which is the only supreme and preserved document.

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and you people tell me to think :), insulting me, calling me a madman, while my reward is with Allah Alone, i pray for all of you LOST people!

may Allah guide all of us to the straight path...Surah 1:5 ;)

JK- May GOD guide you to the straight path. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

mr. humble

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #95 on: July 22, 2008, 06:18:25 AM »
Peace "mr. humble",

JK- First of all regarding the fly you can ask any scietist in the world, whos not a sunni/shia sectarian, that if a fly fell into a drink and it is dipped in further all the harmful germs disappear and see what he says. Then youll perhaps see what nonsense this is. AS for millions of people holding unto the sunnah, there are also MANY MORE people holding unto the view that th earth is 6000 years old i.e. young earth creationism. Does it make them right? On the contrary all of these people are backward and the ones following the "sunnah" are amongst the MOST BACKWARD PPPL ON THE PLANET. As soon as they leave the so called "sunnah" and come to the Quran Alone, they progress. Infact the progress one makes is INVERSELY proportional to the amount of "sunnah" one follows.


i hope these link will clear some misconceptions about the fly hadith...

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s689400.htm

http://www.k-state.edu/media/webzine/bioscience/houseflies.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1489584


another thing: Scientists are humans.... not everything they conclude is 100% accurate even "modern" 21 century scientists

in the Day of Judegement... Allah will be the best of Judges for the lies people claim about his Messenger(Peace be upon them all) and those who purposely distort messenger(PBUH)'s message in order to deceive others through misinformation... they will not have a happy ending!!!


just like salat is a command, obeying the words and wisdom of the Prophet(PBUH) is fulfilled by following the Messenger, since Allah has instructed us to do so in many, many places i quran...


Al-quran is fully detailed on guidance and instruction to get closer to Allah(SWT), information such has how to tie your shoe and hadith are alhamdulillah great information and useful, but they are not absolutely necessary for our guidance, only quran is.... but still knowing the hadith is very useful since Allah says in quran:

3:31 Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."


courtesy:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm

btw, three articles i posted above are not under your alleged criticism of  "sunni/shia" :D, they were real research done by Scientists!
"So have Patience(O Mohammad)! Allah's promise is the very truth, and let not those who have uncertainty make you impatient."
-Surah 30:60 (Translation from M.M. Pickthall)

jonny_k

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2008, 06:28:32 AM »
Peace "mr.humble",
MAN dont yo see how sunnis/shias have completely misinterpreted those findings. Heres an excerpt of what the abc article says HOW to obtain these antibiotics from the fly:
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The antibiotic material is extracted by drowning the flies in ethanol, then running the mixture through a filter to obtain the crude extract.

JK- Do you claim that Muhammad and his companions used alcohol in their vessels? Common now dont be ridiculous.
The other two articles talk about TESTS being done to see if house flies deposit any antibiotics, how much AND THEY WANTED to study the usefulness of that. NOT that theyr going to serve the same food to customers. Another false interpretation. I mentioned it before to "Bubbles", another hadith adherent, that yes many insects including flies have antibiotics and pathogens BIT there are SPECIFIC extraction methods in order to obtain them NEVER by just dumping the fly further into any vessel with any liquid or food as this will have the opposite results. Post the exact hadith to those scietists and see what theyll tell you. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

jonny_k

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2008, 06:32:19 AM »
Peace again "mr. humble",
ALSO dont forget even if the hadith get some things right this is still no proof of their authenticity since i already told you that the books of many philosophers back in greece contain many things which have turned out to be true and also practical and have become the basis of science and mathematics. That doesnt mean you qualify their sayings as being authorized by GOD do you? And as i said just look at the many other absurd hadith too. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

mr. humble

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #98 on: July 22, 2008, 06:39:47 AM »
Peace "mr.humble",
MAN dont yo see how sunnis/shias have completely misinterpreted those findings. Heres an excerpt of what the abc article says HOW to obtain these antibiotics from the fly:
JK- Do you claim that Muhammad and his companions used alcohol in their vessels? Common now dont be ridiculous. I mentioned it before to "Bubbles", another hadith adherent, that yes many insects including flies have antibiotics and pathogens BIT there are SPECIFIC extraction methods in order to obtain them NEVER by just dumping the fly further into any vessel with any liquid or food as this will have the opposite results. Post the exact hadith to those scietists and see what theyll tell you. GOD Bless!



hahahaha, you quote their evidence as if you assume the only way to extract the antibiotic from the fly is through dumping it in ethanol, did the source PROVE that it was the ONLY way to obtain it?

here is the Exact hadith ;)

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i e. the treatment for that disease."

judging by this statement and the scientific research i have cited, the Prophet(PBUH) and the housefly researchers are in complete agreement, judge this hadith by what it says word for word please ignore the parenthetical comments since it is only our perceived interpretation of it!


i have no clue how the heck do you CONJECTURE that this information was studied in ancient greece and thus hadith is a byproduct of "ancient greek philosophy".. do you have solid proof?

another link on this related topic...

http://www.yemenpost.net/8/Health/2.htm



"some may require more than 1000 signs, but still they wouldn't believe that it is the truth from their Lord" -Dr. Zakir Naik
"So have Patience(O Mohammad)! Allah's promise is the very truth, and let not those who have uncertainty make you impatient."
-Surah 30:60 (Translation from M.M. Pickthall)

jonny_k

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2008, 06:43:17 AM »

hahahaha, you quote their evidence as if you assume the only way to extract the antibiotic from the fly is through dumping it in ethanol, did the source PROVE that it was the ONLY way to obtain it?


"some may require 1000 signs from GOD, and still they wouldn't believe it is the truth" -Dr. Zakir Naik

JK- The other two articles talk about TESTS being done to see if house flies deposit any antibiotics, how much AND THEY WANTED to study the usefulness of that. NOT that theyr going to serve the same food to customers. Another false interpretation. ALSO the hadith mentions that the wings of the house flies contain this anti-septic focussing on one of the wings in particular. Wheres the mention of the anti-septic extracted from the wings?  I mentioned it before to "Bubbles", another hadith adherent, that yes many insects including flies have antibiotics and pathogens BIT there are SPECIFIC extraction methods in order to obtain them NEVER by just dumping the fly further into any vessel with any liquid or food as this will have the opposite results. Post the exact hadith to those scietists and see what theyll tell you. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.