Author Topic: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...  (Read 76921 times)

jonny_k

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #110 on: July 28, 2008, 09:33:43 AM »
Peace "abrar",
Ofcourse there can be n absolute truth even in regards to understanding of the Quran. BUT we need to see which methodology is better: Interpreting/understanding Quran via hadith or classical Arabic dictionaries AND QURANIC CROSS REFERENCE. First of all classical arabic dictionaries like Lane's are NOT as biased as hadith since there have been non-muslim i.e. independnent contributors to it who were christian, jewish, sabaean, agnostic, atheistic, etc etc. 2ndly as i said classical dictionaries is not all. The other method is cross refercen to see whether the verses in the Quran talking about a similat topic allow for the selected meaning. You can draw a direct analogy between these two methods and the basic principals which drive evolution NAMELY random mutations(within set chemical laws) vs classical arabic dictionary and natural selction vs Quranic cross referencing whereby the Quran explains itself just as natural selection allows for the benficial traits to be passed on. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

abrar

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #111 on: July 28, 2008, 10:24:17 AM »
Peace Jonny_k,

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First of all classical arabic dictionaries like Lane's are NOT as biased as hadith since there have been non-muslim i.e. independnent contributors to it who were christian, jewish, sabaean, agnostic, atheistic, etc etc.

All those contributors got their sources from the same sectarian sources as well so they are not even reliable. Can you tell me that any of those contributers considered Sacred Mosque as a mental image ? Which dictionary does not state khimar as a head cover ?
You can make uncountable sects based on personal selection of various meanings of a single word as you please. For example a woman wants to wear a head scarf she selects Quranic term khimar as head cover and another woman wants to wear tea shirt so she uses another meaning of khimar by making use of analogies of the root word KHAMARA. Even modesty could mean diffrent things to different people so Quran is just a subjective opinion book.

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natural selction vs Quranic cross referencing whereby the Quran explains itself just as natural selection allows for the benficial traits to be passed on

What if the original meaning has been lost as other ancient languages lose over time ?
What if the original meaning is traditionally known and being unfairly rejected by the Quranists simply by the attribution of a grand evil conspiracy against the Quran by traditionalists? Where exactly do you  draw the lines?

At some place God says in Quran that Salat could be lost by generations over time. whatever I have read in the Quranists' literature is that the times of salat vary from two times to three times which God clearly says is prescribed as a timed duty. The method of salat can be any thing from two units or even like sunnis and shia way as God does not specifically state the number of units and steps. What if its true that salat has been lost over time ? Which independent dictionary describes salat as communion ? Which dictionary says salat over the prophet means commune over the prophet ? What if the true meaning is lost ?

I will give you an example of a German philologist Christopher Luxenberg who made a research that Quran developed from Aramaic language so he developed a terminology of the Quran which is extremely absurd, funny and comic. Read more about it at the link below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_Of_The_Koran


I have been reading a book "globalized Islam" by oliver roy which eloquently explains the personal struggle going on throughout the muslim world to define islam as a universal religion without the influence of any culture of any country or bias. Traditional ulema are losing authority to liberal and extremist muslims. There is a crisis of authority as muslims are increasingly making it an individual responsibility to understand Islam unbiased by any school of thought. But the sad truth is that there is no convincing answer that has been found yet. So in the meantime this verse gives me hope 39:18 "The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence."
And I think that the promised talking animal in Quran would clarify everything that ever needs to be known about Quran.

jonny_k

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #112 on: July 28, 2008, 12:30:29 PM »
Peace "abrar",

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Peace Jonny_k,

All those contributors got their sources from the same sectarian sources as well so they are not even reliable. Can you tell me that any of those contributers considered Sacred Mosque as a mental image ? Which dictionary does not state khimar as a head cover ?

JK- MAN have you actually gone to http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Look up the root for "khumur" there, in lanes, and youll see tht the primary meaning is "cover" and not head covering. Then go and look up the rootfor "masjid" i.e. "sajada" and "haram" and youll find the meanings as "lowly, humble, submissive" and "forbid/prevent/prohibit respectively AND NOT SACRED MOSQUE.

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You can make uncountable sects based on personal selection of various meanings of a single word as you please. For example a woman wants to wear a head scarf she selects Quranic term khimar as head cover and another woman wants to wear tea shirt so she uses another meaning of khimar by making use of analogies of the root word KHAMARA. Even modesty could mean diffrent things to different people so Quran is just a subjective opinion book.

JK- You havnt even looked at lanes lexicon have you? Go do that first.

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What if the original meaning has been lost as other ancient languages lose over time ?

JK- Why would GOD make the original meaning get lost? If that were the case then there was no use of Him sending us Quran since we wouldnt be able to understand it. Thus this is an absurd point.

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What if the original meaning is traditionally known and being unfairly rejected by the Quranists simply by the attribution of a grand evil conspiracy against the Quran by traditionalists? Where exactly do you  draw the lines?

JK- We dont disagree with the traditional understanding of every word. Only with that which via cross referencing within the Quran has shown to be inconsistent or the meaning adapted by the sectarians is more of an implied than root meaning.

Quote
At some place God says in Quran that Salat could be lost by generations over time. whatever I have read in the Quranists' literature is that the times of salat vary from two times to three times which God clearly says is prescribed as a timed duty. The method of salat can be any thing from two units or even like sunnis and shia way as God does not specifically state the number of units and steps. What if its true that salat has been lost over time ? Which independent dictionary describes salat as communion ? Which dictionary says salat over the prophet means commune over the prophet ? What if the true meaning is lost ?

JK- Again goto http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm and check the meaning of "saad laam waw" under "saad" to see what it basically means. As for this being lost it means clearly that some people have lost to be in communion and they isolate themselves from each other. GOD also says that every bird knows its salat:
[24:41]  Do you not realize that everyone in the heavens and the earth glorifies GOD, even the birds as they fly in a column? Each knows its SALAT and its glorification. GOD is fully aware of everything they do.
In other verses it is mentioned that birds and animals are in communities like us:
[6:38]  All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are COMMUNITIES like you. We did not leave anything out of this book.** To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned.
This is how cross referencing can be used to clarify the meaning of words.

Quote
I will give you an example of a German philologist Christopher Luxenberg who made a research that Quran developed from Aramaic language so he developed a terminology of the Quran which is extremely absurd, funny and comic. Read more about it at the link below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_Of_The_Koran


I have been reading a book "globalized Islam" by oliver roy which eloquently explains the personal struggle going on throughout the muslim world to define islam as a universal religion without the influence of any culture of any country or bias. Traditional ulema are losing authority to liberal and extremist muslims. There is a crisis of authority as muslims are increasingly making it an individual responsibility to understand Islam unbiased by any school of thought. But the sad truth is that there is no convincing answer that has been found yet. So in the meantime this verse gives me hope 39:18 "The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence."
And I think that the promised talking animal in Quran would clarify everything that ever needs to be known about Quran.

JK- Yes much of the Quran is yet to be understood and the animal, daaba, is IMO a creature which would evolve in 200M years whilst wer out in space. Itd most probably be something like he "sqiubbon" as in the documentary "the future is wild":
http://pic.enorth.com.cn/0/01/26/71/1267102_957255.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squibbon#Squibbon
Yes this prophecy of the Quran is very much compatible with latest scientific predictions. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

AhmedComp

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #113 on: July 28, 2008, 10:11:21 PM »
Peace "abrar",

JK- MAN have you actually gone to http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Look up the root for "khumur" there, in lanes, and youll see tht the primary meaning is "cover" and not head covering. Then go and look up the rootfor "masjid" i.e. "sajada" and "haram" and youll find the meanings as "lowly, humble, submissive" and "forbid/prevent/prohibit respectively AND NOT SACRED MOSQUE.

who the hell are you seriously ??? do u speak arabic ?? seems you are just very ignortant

do u know what the meaning of " al masjid el haram " one of the meaning is " the mosque where the killing was forbidden" 

as if your telling me "back off" means to turn off your back ... silly understanding to the words..

so as arabic speaker i tell you that you have a lack in understanding my first language.
and again.. if you don't believe in the prophets ahadith why do you believe in the quran ? both came by the same person. so seriously use the piece of flesh that named brain better than that. i seriously is not able to read more of your words.. because i am not patient person. i just hate people who think they know arabic language better than the people who speaks it ... so have fun misslead more and more with your ignorance.




Curious Cat

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #114 on: July 28, 2008, 10:26:07 PM »

if you don't believe in the prophets ahadith why do you believe in the quran ? both came by the same person. so seriously use the piece of flesh that named brain better than that.


Peace to you!
Suppose that everyone here agrees that both the Hadith and the Quran were revealed by Allah (SWT) through the Prophet (pbuh). Then why is it that there are 'sahih' Hadith and so many 'weak' Hadith, where as there is no 'sahih' Quran and 'weak' Quran?

P.S. There's no need to be rude, is there? I'm sure everyone here is just trying to learn the truth.

AhmedComp

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #115 on: July 28, 2008, 10:34:53 PM »
you are right and i am sorry about it.. but i am kind and nervious person in same time.

and about sa7i7 ahadith...

god saved the quran from any editing like what happened in bible and twaorah.. also god didn't save all the ahadtih of the prophet from being edited... there for there was some low people who wanted to gain some benifites from editing some of the prophet's ahadith.. that's how some of the ahadith of the prophet became weak.
but what bukhary did was the best option to collect the ahadtih in one book to be sure it will not be more edited.. and he did a great job.

he didn't just trusted one person one hadith no he asked many and many others i think there was some ahadith was being sa7i7 because of 90 or person aproved it..

Curious Cat

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #116 on: July 28, 2008, 11:10:32 PM »
you are right and i am sorry about it..
No worries. We all become sensitive and angry when speaking about our beliefs.  :peace:

he didn't just trusted one person one hadith no he asked many and many others i think there was some ahadith was being sa7i7 because of 90 or person aproved it.

Bukhari probably went through some pain-staking processes to collect and select the 'sahih' hadith. I don't doubt that he made quite an effort to compile sayings 'attributed' to our Prophet. On that we agree brother.

Tell me, are you familiar with the hadith in 'Sahih Al Bukhari' regarding Salat?
The one where it is said that after meeting all the other Prophets (Moses, Abraham), our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ascended along with Gabirel and received orders from Allah (SWT) for prayer? According to the rest of the Hadith, Allah (SWT) initially decreed 50  prayers per day to the Prophet, and when Muhammad (pbuh) came back with this decree, he was advised by Moses (pbuh) that Allah's followers would not be able to bear it. So our beloved Prophet traveled back and forth several times and appealed to Allah (SWT) each time to reduce the number of prayers. The Hadith goes onto say that Allah agreed each time to the Prophet's request and finally agreed upon five daily prayers.

You've heard of this hadtih yes? In case you haven't you can read it from the Net.

Just follow the link or copy and paste this to you adress bar:  http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=8&translator=1

Do you think the Hadith is 'sahih' or weak?

dotty

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #117 on: July 28, 2008, 11:18:49 PM »
But dont take my word for it, many people convert to Islam after reading The Quran, then when told "you have to obey the hadith too" they ask "what's that?" obviously because they do not get this impression from reading The Quran.

Blessings Wakas,

This describes exactly what happened to me.  I was content reading the Quran (from cover to cover).  It didn't take long to get blasted with... gotta enter the bathroom with your left foot, can't pray (or even touch the Quran) while menstrating, no no, wudu has to be done like this, you HAVE to say this and this in arabic (pronounced exactly), etc, etc and so on.  It freaked me out so I opened the Quran desperately trying to find all these "things" I missed.  I had no idea what they were trying to tell me.  I mean, people told me it was the hadith/sunnah of the prophet, but I just couldn't wrap my head around it because I never got that impression from reading the Quran. 

I can smile about it now, but then (7 years ago), I was so blindsided by all the sunnah/hadith "rules" that it scared the crap out of me.  I felt I was being watched by the muslim  :police: every single day of the month so I had to hide my prayers for at least 5 days every month so I wouldn't get "caught praying while menstrating" (true story).

Peace,
dotty

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #118 on: July 28, 2008, 11:21:00 PM »
i sure did.... and it's part of the story of the israa and maeraj...

and god ordered muhammed to make muslims pray 50 times and when muhammed came back to muses he told ask god to reduce it , because muses had tough times with jew ... then went back then went to muses until it became 5 prayers only.

but why u mentioned it ?? do u doubt it?

Curious Cat

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Re: VERY IMPORTANT!!! hadith talking about quran aloners...
« Reply #119 on: July 28, 2008, 11:34:53 PM »
I mentioned it because I find it very interesting, bro.

Since Moses previously had difficulty preaching to the Jews, he knew that Muhammad's (pbuh) followers would not be able to adhere to the fifty daily prayers decreed by Allah (SWT), correct?


Therefore, on the advice of his fellow prophet (Moses), Muhammad (pbuh) traveled to Allah (SWT) and appealed to Allah's Merciful nature by requesting Him to reduce the prayers, correct?

Was I correct in understanding this part the Isra and Maeraj story? Would you like to add something to the above two statements?