The true female and male hijab?

[Jack]

Oh my God,   where was i  ?  How come i missed ,,,, the mess,, created in the above mentioned debate

Make sure to read through it! Great discussion 'till the last few pages, where... well, you know...

[siki]

As Salaamu Alaika siki,

LOL  It was a mess, and I'm not proud of the arguments.  But I still referred to it because I stand by the arguments that I put forth to make the point.  Hopefully those who read it can look at the points of importance and ignore the other parts. 

As Salaamu Alaikum, 

IQO.  salam brother

Actually i am enlightened,   because i myself need to sort out this head cover thing, (which presently i am not too sure about)

I have just gone through it without really evaluating the important points made by both sides , and have to cross check/verify them myself. 

I shall soon do it in my spare time and inshallah would get back with my opinion , as to who's side ; I side by.

siki

[brook]

ImanQuranonly, please excuse me from this discussion because the points you make do not look serious to me, and I see that it will be too tiring to take everything from zero knowledge. 

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

[brook]

I really don't understand where you get your points from unless you don't believe in Al Quran as divine scripture from Allah as guidance for all humanity.  And are we talking about "awrah" or "zeenah" or all of 24:31?

When I refer to zero knowledge, I don?t mean the level of knowledge ImanQuranonly has but the content of the verse itself. It is relegated to zero knowledge, for example, to deprive its discussion of the concept of awrah because awrah is simply another word for zeenah which the verse deals with:

And let the believing women not display their zeenah to any but ? the children who are  unaware of women?s awrah.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

[Samia]

When I refer to zero knowledge, I don?t mean the level of knowledge ImanQuranonly has but the content of the verse itself. It is relegated to zero knowledge, for example, to deprive its discussion of the concept of awrah because awrah is simply another word for zeenah which the verse deals with:

And let the believing women not display their zeenah to any but ? the children who are  unaware of women?s awrah.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Is this a change of mind from zeenah = jewelry?

[brook]

Is this a change of mind from zeenah = jewelry?

Good question, sister Samia. Only a person with meticulous intent like you could notice the seeming difference of mind here. The answer: NEVER. Zeenah in 24:31  = awrah in 24:31 = awra 33:13.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

[huruf]

I think I get what you mean. However, how would you translate the awra in both ayas in the same meaning as the zeena in 24.31? Still you maintain your translation of zeenah as jewelry and apparel?

[Samia]

Good question, sister Samia. Only a person with meticulous intent like you could notice the seeming difference of mind here. The answer: NEVER. Zeenah in 24:31  = awrah in 24:31 = awra 33:13.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Got it, got it: jewelry is 3awra?

[brook]

However, how would you translate the awra in both ayas in the same meaning as the zeena in 24.31? (huruf)

In 33:13 the musrekeen's houses are awra. They are prone to plunder.
In 24:31 the women's zeenah are awra. They are prone to jealousy.

The houses mentioned in 33:13 do not tempt anybody sexually. Neither do the zeena in 24:31.

The word awra is used in 24:58 too, but this time with the meaning related to sexual maturity of the children from you (minkum). They have to take permission to enter their parents' room.

Isn't it clear enough, a woman's own children are fobidden to see her awra when it means parts of her body such as her breasts and genital organs even though they have not reached sexual maturity (lam yablugu'l khuluma) yet.

On the other hand, there is no referrence to the children's sexual maturity in 24:31; plus, they are not defined as from you (minkum), and you are allwed to reveal your zeenah to them.

Is it not clear enough?

What else do we want God to tell us so that we will accept that the zeenah in 24:31 can not be breasts, bellies, genital organs... and that they are simply the jewlry women wear?

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

[Samia]

Salaam Hasan

You are the one who is linking zeenah to 3awra, whereas the whole verse does not mention 3awra. And BTW, 3awra has nothing  to relate it to sex or seual desire, as you have noted yourself in the different verses. 3awar means diappearance of the eye sight, hence a3war means one eyed person. So,  "3awra" is anything we do not want others to see (make them blind of it). Why would a necklace be "3awra" just because it is around my neck, or a bracelet just because it is aroung my wrist? What if I am not wearing any jewelry, can I show my bosom? If it is my wrist that should not be seen, then the verse would have given us a "design" for a dress code. But the verse speaks about the zeenah of women.

Unfortunately, no other "zeenah" is mentioned in the qur'aan, but we can understand it from some other derivatives:

41:12; 67:5: the zeenah of the sky is its lamps "stars".
49:7: zeenah of hearts is righteousness "imaan"
10:24: Earth :nature

We can roughly deduce that the zeenah for anything is directly related to it and exclusive to it. To my understanding deduced from this, zeenah of women is something exclusive to them and directly related to them. Jewelry fails this test.