Author Topic: Does Quran prohibit ?  (Read 25837 times)

Samia

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4697
  • Karma +9/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #130 on: November 15, 2007, 08:36:45 AM »
اللذان\ اللذين = Pronoun for two (Relative pronoun, literaly: (who) :Two men, or a man and a woman; but not two women)
الذين = Pronoun for more than two (Relative pronoun, literaly: (who) :A group of men only, or a group of women with at least one man, but not all women)

Sharp001

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 175
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #131 on: November 15, 2007, 08:43:52 AM »
Thanks for confirming my understanding, Sister Samia. Hopefully, this should clarify Hasan's query to him.

Peace

siki

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1301
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #132 on: November 15, 2007, 10:21:14 AM »
Peace

Somehow , I had always taken Nissa o kum in 4-15 to be the women under your guardianship (daughters, sisters etc) minus the Azwaj, because it  never made sense (to lockup your spouses for the life time). As this law would invariably  be misused by the husband to abuse and subjugate his wife.

And here i find the answer in 65-1,  we have an exception to the rule,for the wives who commit  Fahishas. 

If the husband is not an eye witness, or if he does not want to report, but is sure (4 reliable witnesses) he may divorce and kick her out of the house.

Once she goes back to her father's house, and if he(father) is reasonably convinced about the instances(fahishas)/character, It becomes his responsibility to carry out the commandment in 4-15.

siki

Samia

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4697
  • Karma +9/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #133 on: November 15, 2007, 11:07:56 AM »
Salaam siki
Peace

Somehow , I had always taken Nissa o kum in 4-15 to be the women under your guardianship (daughters, sisters etc) minus the Azwaj, because it  never made sense (to lockup your spouses for the life time). As this law would invariably  be misused by the husband to abuse and subjugate his wife.

And here i find the answer in 65-1,  we have an exception to the rule,for the wives who commit  Fahishas. 

If the husband is not an eye witness, or if he does not want to report, but is sure (4 reliable witnesses) he may divorce and kick her out of the house.

Once she goes back to her father's house, and if he(father) is reasonably convinced about the instances(fahishas)/character, It becomes his responsibility to carry out the commandment in 4-15.

siki


Poor woman!
Husband, brother, father...No escape!

Quote
(daughters, sisters etc)
The address would be "banaatukum". "Nisaa'u of X" has always been used to mean "wives of X", just like "imra'atu of X" is the wife of X (where X is either a proper name or a possessive pronoun)

If the husband/wife has a kind of knowledge about the cheating of his/her spouse (other than 4 witnesses), he/she only has the oath when reporting to the authorities. Maybe after that they are not allowed to divorce and she/he has to stay in the house (wedlock) forever or until one dies. Their other option is to not report and they divorce.

I think this is the meaning of "...do not inherit women by force, nor make it hard for them to get some of what you gave them unless they have committed a proven fahisha" 4:19 (some men make the wives life hell, and when she wants a divorce "which he wants, too", he asks her to forfeit her allowance and any moneys he ows her).

Any other sister/daughter/son/brother, it's nobody's business unless they are caught by four witnesses.

Quote
As this law would invariably  be misused by the husband to abuse and subjugate his wife.

Brother and father can, and do abuse it, too: Honour killing is always carried out by these relatives, plus cousins.



brook

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #134 on: November 15, 2007, 04:15:01 PM »
In all of the instances in the Book, where "allatheena" (written in Arabic as الذين) is written, do you take them to be addressing "those (people and jinn) who"?

Yes but only those who; that is, simply people; not necessarily people and jinn.

اللذان\ اللذين = Pronoun for two (Relative pronoun, literaly: (who) :Two men, or a man and a woman; but not two women)

Most of the time I understand the Arabic Quran without having to resorting to a translation I but  don?t know Arabic. So, sister Samia, I depend on your explications. However, this time I am confused because you say that the pronoun in 4:16 may stand for a man and a woman.

I thought it stood for only men so that the fahisha the verse dealt with was male homosexuality.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

siki

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1301
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #135 on: November 15, 2007, 09:52:47 PM »
Salaam siki
Poor woman!
Husband, brother, father...No escape!


Salam samia,


Indeed she is,    she has to behave herself, otherwise ,  her men are suppose to take care of her. I have seen , even young sons to set right their faultering mothers at a certain points in their lives.




The address would be "banaatukum". "Nisaa'u of X" has always been used to mean "wives of X", just like "imra'atu of X" is the wife of X (where X is either a proper name or a possessive pronoun)



Yes generally,  but Nissa o kum simply means "Their women ", that could include all the women that a man is responsible for/takes care off.

One incident of "Nissa i hinna" i can remember off hand , is 24-31.   The women to relax their dress code, and "Nissa i hinna" is used , along with the rest of the list.  I am sure these "Niss i hinna" are not their spouses.  And there could be more if one makes a deliberate effort to search.


)

If the husband/wife has a kind of knowledge about the cheating of his/her spouse (other than 4 witnesses), he/she only has the oath when reporting to the authorities. Maybe after that they are not allowed to divorce and she/he has to stay in the house (wedlock) forever or until one dies. Their other option is to not report and they divorce.



If the husband is not an eye witness, and hence cannot testify under an oath, but he gets solid reports of certain incidents by 4 reliable witnesses , in the light of which he can suspect with a reasonable assurance , that her wife is most likely committing Fahishas,  Then he may divorce her , and kick her immediately out of the house.

As per she being locked up in the house for ever by the husband ?  This is one of the worst options ,  i am quite sure that no women would like to be in those shoes



I think this is the meaning of "...do not inherit women by force, nor make it hard for them to get some of what you gave them unless they have committed a proved fahisha" 4:19 (some men make the wives life hell, and when she wants a divorce "which he wants, too", he asks her to forfeit her allowance and any moneys he ows her).


.

Ya i agree , that generally happens.

Quote from: Samia

link=topic=15805.msg154221#msg154221 date=1195150076

Any other sister/daughter/son/brother, it's nobody's business unless they are caught by four witnesses



No samia ,  it is their business,  it is every body's business to curb such things in the society ,  if a woman is on the loose, and is committing fahishas , it is anybody's/every body's business to do something ,  appropriate ,  like report the incident to her Father/brother, etc.


Brother and father can, and do abuse it, too: Honour killing is always carried out by these relatives, plus cousins.



Ya,  they can too,  but a husband would most likely do it , whereas a father/brother are least likely to abuse such a power.

Quran does not advise honor killing, if someone does it , he/they are wrong.

peace

siki

Samia

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4697
  • Karma +9/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #136 on: November 15, 2007, 10:33:57 PM »
Salaam siki


Salam samia,


Indeed she is,     she has to behave herself, otherwise ,  her men are suppose to take care of her.



And "he"? Doesn't "he" have to behave himself?
Is it your own opinion or you have supporting evidence? What happened to the verse 24:2? The existence of this verse is what makes me think in another way, not because I am a "woman"  ;).

Quote
Yes generally,  but Nissa o kum simply means "Their women ", that could include all the women that a man is responsible for/takes care off.


If you scan the quraan, you will find this expression, when related to males, always means "wives".

Quote
One incident of "Nissa i hinna" i can remember off hand  , is 24-31.   The women to relax their dress code, and  "Nissa i hinna" is used , along with the rest of the list.  I am sure these "Niss i hinna" are not their spouses.  And there could be more if one makes a delibrate effort to search.


I am glad you brought this up! I once argued against this very expression being "women" and the person I was arguing against was very angry.
Here, apply another meaning of "nisaa': males she is their guardien, supporting them financially, therefore they are either too young (already mentioned) or with disabilities (plus of course parents, brothers, husband..who are all mentioned already).

Quote
If the husband is not an eye witness, and hence cannot testify under an oath, but he gets solid reports of certain incidents by 4 reliable witnesses , in the light of which he can suspect with a reasonable assurance , that her wife is most likely committing Fahishas,  Then he may divorce her , and kick her immidiately out of the house.

Says who? <snetence in bold>
Please note that we have verse 4:19 which indicates just the opposite.

Also verse 24:7. Why can't he testify under an oath? Either he blieves them and is ready to testify under an oath, or he inclines towards not believing them. No one is forcing him to do anything. If he wants to divorce her he has to go to authorities and make the oath. Otherwise, no divorce on these premises.

Quote
As per she being locked up in the house for ever by the husband ?  This is one of the worst options ,  i am quite sure that no women would like to be in those shoes


Being locked up is bad, and I think we are missing something in this verse. How can we lock up somebody for a crime when we have another verse giving us a different punishment (24:2), and another verse telling the spouse what to do in this case if the stated evidence is not available(24:7).

Quote
Quran does not advise honor killing, if someone does it , he/they are wrong.


You are missing my point. What I want to say is that fathers and brothers can go as far as killing, locking up is their "mercy".

Samia

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4697
  • Karma +9/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #137 on: November 15, 2007, 10:38:49 PM »
Salaam Hasan

you say that the pronoun in 4:16 may stand for a man and a woman.

I thought it stood for only men so that the fahisha the verse dealt with was male homosexuality.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay


Yes, it could be two men or a man and a woman. You definitely have to say "allathaani" in: (my brother and sister who "allathaani" live in Cairo). There is no other pronoun for that. There's, however, a different pronoun if they are both females: allataani.

siki

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1301
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #138 on: November 16, 2007, 07:45:06 AM »
Salaam siki

And "he"? Doesn't "he" have to behave himself?
Is it your own opinion or you have supporting evidence? What happened to the verse 24:2? The existence of this verse is what makes me think in another way, not because I am a "woman"  ;).



off course everyone is ordered to behave himself, but quran stresses upon controlling a lewd women , because if there is one such a woman on the loose , she is likely to find  plenty of men,  more than willing to go along , where as if there is no such availability, the men may be able to handle the surging testosterone in their blood.

Moreover this is not my opinion but , is suggested in 4-15 , and i think is very logical,  God knows his creation the best.

What about 24-2?  ???
it is self explanatory, why are you confusing the two issues,  zina and committing Fahisha?  i don't think we have any problem with 24-2 and what to do in case of Zina

Zina is that one in a million chance when they are caught red handed performing the act by 4 people , and God's commandments are very clear what to do in such a scenario.


peace

siki

siki

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1301
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #139 on: November 16, 2007, 08:03:50 AM »
Salaam siki



If you scan the quraan, you will find this expression, when related to males, always means "wives".

I am glad you brought this up! I once argued against this very expression being "women" and the person I was arguing against was very angry.
Here, apply another meaning of "nisaa': males she is their guardien, supporting them financially, therefore they are either too young (already mentioned) or with disabilities (plus of course parents, brothers, husband..who are all mentioned already).


I will check the occurrences and get back to you. 

however , the expression "Your women" in any language, would never lock the expression to the meaning of Azwaj only. and we have a clear proof in 24-31
.

24-31And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women(Nissa i hinna), or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful

This is very clear in the above verse what does nissai hinna mean , if you have some new theory, we can open a new thread and discuss the nissa i hinna  separately.

siki