Author Topic: Does Quran prohibit ?  (Read 26209 times)

Sharp001

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 175
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #120 on: November 13, 2007, 02:57:33 PM »
Yes, it is masculine. It is allathaani itself, just grammatical difference, like the difference between al kitaabu and al kitaaba (the book)

Sister Samia,

An honest question, then. If allathayn اللذيْن is masculine but which is meant to address both men and women, then is it possible that "allathaani" ("the two who") could stand to mean a man or a woman? or am I mistaken in someway? I apologize for being a bother.

Peace

brook

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #121 on: November 13, 2007, 07:14:47 PM »
Sister Samia,

An honest question, then. If allathayn اللذيْن is masculine but which is meant to address both men and women, then is it possible that "allathaani" ("the two who") could stand to mean a man or a woman? or am I mistaken in someway? I apologize for being a bother.

Peace

or rather both those of the invisible beings and humans as Muhammad Asad puts it? Please.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Samia

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4697
  • Karma +9/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #122 on: November 13, 2007, 11:01:24 PM »
Sister Samia,

An honest question, then. If allathayn اللذيْن is masculine but which is meant to address both men and women, then is it possible that "allathaani" ("the two who") could stand to mean a man or a woman? or am I mistaken in someway? I apologize for being a bother.

Peace


An excellent observation and I do not know how it evaded me! Of course, it could, and maybe it is a man and a woman!!

or rather both those of the invisible beings and humans as Muhammad Asad puts it? Please.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Most probably Asad based his translation on the only other occurence of the word which is in the context of humans and invisible beings. It is a probable understanding, but a man and a woman is more probable, especially that chapter 4 does not mention "the invisibles: jinn" in any of its verses.

Sharp001

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 175
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #123 on: November 14, 2007, 01:36:58 PM »
An excellent observation and I do not know how it evaded me! Of course, it could, and maybe it is a man and a woman!!

Sister Samia,

Thank you for clarifying your understanding in this regard. So, now we are left with the following questions:

(1) What is the "Al-fahasha" that 4:15 is referring to, in relation to women?
(2) Can we reasonably consider that 4:16 also refers to the same "Al-fahasha", mentioned in 4:15, but in relation to a man and woman?
(3) In the Book, how is "Al-fahasha" different from "Fahasha"?

With those questions in mind, I had begun with the premise that "Fahasha" pertains only to deeds which fall under the umbrella of sexual misconduct and anything shameful in that regard. So, keeping that in mind, I looked up all occurences of all the words which have the same root as "Fahasha", i.e. فحش (Fa-Ha-Shin). Then, I came along the following verse:

65:1 - "O you prophet, if any of you have divorced the women, then they should be divorced while ensuring that their required interim is fulfilled, and keep count of the interim. You shall reverence God your Lord, and do not evict the women from their homes, nor should they leave, unless they have committed a proven adultery (بفاحشة - bifahisha). And these are God's limits. And anyone who transgresses God's limits has wronged his soul. You never know; perhaps God will make something come out of this." (Free minds Translation)

I went back to 4:15:

4:15 - "And the women who commit lewdness (الفاحشة - alfahisha), you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death takes them, or God makes for them a way out."

Now, this seemed strange to me, because, apparently, both are supposed to allude to "fahasha", but the treatment of the subject women is opposite. In 4:15, a guilty woman (regardless of her marriage status as I saw no specification) is to be restricted to the homes, but 65:1 gives the permission to let a woman who is guilty of lewdness, leave the home. I apologize if I am misunderstanding this in any way, but as I see it, both "fahasha" cannot be of the same nature, if that is the case. Please feel free to disagree with anything that follows from this point onward. I'm not sure, but I think that the Prefix "Al" before a word in the Book, make that word distinct and unique, among other occurences of that word, pertaining to the same context. So, I assume that "Al-Fahasha" (e.g. in 4:15) is distinct and unique against other "Fahasha" (e.g. 65:1) in the same context.

The question now is what is the context in which "Al-Fahasha" is mention in 4:15? All of the verse of this Chapter, before 4:15 (except the first one) address orphans and inheritance. In fact, 4:11 is a direction from God about children's inhertance (that a man leaves for them) & 4:12 continues along the same theme with what the wives leave. The next two verses are also important because they mention the consequences in the after-life. Two important words come out of them, the roots for which are as follows:

(2)حد (HA-Dal)
(3)عدو (Ayn-Dal-Waw)

What I have gathered is the second word, more or less, means "limit" or "boundary" and the third word, in similar fashion, mean "against" or "oppose".

So, we know the "limits" and "boundaries" of God in 4:13 & 4:14 from His directions in 4:11 and 4:12, and we know the consequences in the afterlife in 4:13 & 4:14 for those who go "against" and "oppose" those "limits" and "boundaries".

But what about the worldly consequences of abusing the rights of inheritance? Are there any punishments for such mentioned in the Book? I am not implying that there should be, but there could be, right? Coming back to "Al-Fahash", I think it is too much of a coincidence that the context of the verse may be the "Inheritance" verses before, and its root word also alludes to going beyond the limits. Maybe if we look at the ground realities, it might shed some light on the possible applicability of this verse. At this point in time, I am not too sure about my assertions, but I would very much appreciate some feedback.

Peace

brook

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #124 on: November 14, 2007, 03:46:25 PM »
Two questions:

(1)In 4:16 the word allathaine stands for only males but in 41:29 it may refer to a man and a woman as Samia points out in her answer to Sharp001. Is it really the case when the jinne and inse are taken into account in 41:29?

Wa qaala?llatheena kafaroo rabbana arenaa?llathaine adallanaa mina al-jinne wa?l-inse najAAal humaa tahta aqdaaminaa liyakoonaa mina al-asfaleenaa

And the unbelievers will say: "Our Sustainer! Show us from among both of the invisible beings and humans that have led us astray: we shall crush them under our feet, so that they shall be the lowest of all."

(2)When do the wives commit faahisha according to 65:1, before or after the decision of  divorce?

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Sharp001

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 175
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #125 on: November 14, 2007, 04:48:45 PM »
Salam Hasan,

I think there is a slight misunderstanding. When I asked sister about "aallathani" (written in Arabic as اللذان) in 4:16, she replied that it is possible that it can mean "the two (a man and a woman) who". In 41:29, the word is "allatheena" (written in Arabic as الذين), which I think addresses the populous, "those who", which would include both men and women.

As for question 2, I'd say, logically, before the divorce is finalised, because there is no sense for the lady to stay at the house or be restricted thereto after the final divorce.

Peace

brook

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2007, 07:16:30 PM »
Salam Hasan,

I think there is a slight misunderstanding. When I asked sister about "aallathani" (written in Arabic as اللذان) in 4:16, she replied that it is possible that it can mean "the two (a man and a woman) who". In 41:29, the word is "allatheena" (written in Arabic as الذين), which I think addresses the populous, "those who", which would include both men and women.

As for question 2, I'd say, logically, before the divorce is finalised, because there is no sense for the lady to stay at the house or be restricted thereto after the final divorce.

Peace

Salam Sharp. Please excuse me for insisting but I read the word in 41:29 as allathaine rather than allatheena.

As for my other question, I ask it because I am cahecking to learn whether the crime mentioned in 65:1 is kind of nushuuz mentioned in 4:34 and 4:128. If it is, it is different from the faahisha mentioned in 4:15 and 4:16; therefore the punishmet it deserves will naturally be different.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Sharp001

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 175
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #127 on: November 15, 2007, 02:00:16 AM »
Salam Hasan,

I must be misunderstanding something here, but are you implying (or insisting) that it is the same word in both 4:16 and 41:29? or do you agree with my previous post in relation to your first question?

As for the nushuuz, I would probably say, that if it were to be so, then "nushuuz" would have been the reference made in 65:1, rather than fahasha. Further, I think that "nushuuz" translates to disrespect in both 4:34 and 4:128.

Peace

brook

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #128 on: November 15, 2007, 07:05:20 AM »
are you implying (or insisting) that it is the same word in both 4:16 and 41:29?

Yes. That is actually what Samia said in her answer to yoıu. She said: You also find it in 41:29 in the accusative form (as object): allathayn. "...Our Lord! show us those among both jinn and humans who led us astray..."

Your question: is allathayn also a masculine form? Her answer: Yes, it is masculine. It is allathaani itself, just grammatical difference, like the difference between al kitaabu and al kitaaba (the book)

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Sharp001

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 175
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does Quran prohibit ?
« Reply #129 on: November 15, 2007, 07:29:58 AM »
Ahh... Now I see... so basically you are saying that "those" and "them" are the same word, or at least, different forms of the same word. "Them" is the accusative form of "Those".

Ok, fair enough. So, back to your original question.

(1)In 4:16 the word allathaine stands for only males but in 41:29 it may refer to a man and a woman as Samia points out in her answer to Sharp001. Is it really the case when the jinne and inse are taken into account in 41:29?

Wa qaala’llatheena kafaroo rabbana arenaa’llathaine adallanaa mina al-jinne wa’l-inse najAAal humaa tahta aqdaaminaa liyakoonaa mina al-asfaleenaa

And the unbelievers will say: "Our Sustainer! Show us from among both of the invisible beings and humans that have led us astray: we shall crush them under our feet, so that they shall be the lowest of all."

I suppose I am being unfair here, but I'll ask you this. In all of the instances in the Book, where "allatheena" (written in Arabic as الذين) is written, do you take them to be addressing "those (people and jinn) who"? I'm just trying to get your understanding here so that I may be able to answer your questions on the same platform.

Peace