A Just God: Determinism vs. Salvation

[Mik]

I'd like to see everyone's take on a question that has been biting me for several months.

Assuming that the universe (at least as we know it) has a beginning, and that there is no (physical) direct divine intervention on the world/universe, if any... that would mean that from the "starting" setup of the universe, and world consequently, that everyone is doomed to do whatever they do in their lives as a result of this setup, in a complex chain of "cause and effect."

That's determinism.

Now for the question: Given the above conditions, how can the God of any salvation-oriented theistic religion be considered "just" if many people are already doomed from the beginning to make decisions that may prevent such salvation?

Even if such impediment to salvation is temporary, that does not change the fact that they had no real choice.

Some may argue that such people have the freedom of choice (free will), but in reality, their choices (ie, to commit a crime or not to, or to accept or reject a belief) have already been preconditioned by the circumstances of their lives and the world around them, among other variables that they have no control over.

Your thoughts?

[Wakas]

Basically, the question/argument implies we have no free-choice, the ability to choose, thus God judging us is invalidated and unjust.

I consider this one of those fancy-sounding philosophical arguments which has no basis in reality. Quite simply, get a glass of water, sit it in front of you, and decide whether to drink it or not.

Whichever you decide to do, please explain to us how you were forced to do whatever you chose and explain how it was impossible to do otherwise. Thanks.

[Mik]

Basically, the question/argument implies we have no free-choice, the ability to choose, thus God judging us is invalidated and unjust.

I consider this one of those fancy-sounding philosophical arguments which has no basis in reality. Quite simply, get a glass of water, sit it in front of you, and decide whether to drink it or not.

Whichever you decide to do, please explain to us how you were forced to do whatever you chose and explain how it was impossible to do otherwise. Thanks.

Peace,

I'm not saying that we do not have the freedom to choose or make decisions; I'm just saying that our decisions are in some way or another influenced by external factors that we ultimately have no control over.

If I were to drink the water, chances are that the reason would be because (1)I was thirsty, (2)I would feel bad for letting a glass of water go to waste, (3)I'm too lazy to put the glass in the refrigerator to drink later, among a multitude of other lesser factors (how would I have responded to the same situation earlier,  should I respond the same way this time, and why?) which I would take into consideration.

Anyway, I make a choice, after my options are considered.  Regardless of what my decision is, it was influenced by at least one factor, and this decision will have results; I probably will not be thirsty for the remainder of the night.  Or perhaps I've contracted another stomach virus somehow, which will cause my stomach to effectively eject all food and drink I've consumed recently, and will decide late in the night to get another drink of water in order to hydrate my system as a result.

Drinking the water or deciding not to was my action, but what influenced it came from previous experiences.  Assuming I didn't drink the water, my other option was not completely impossible; just given the circumstances and situation at that moment, I decided against it; I might decide to drink it at another time.  At this different time, the circumstances will never be completely identical again, so my option may be different.  I might drink tea instead.

If the time during which I decided not to drink from the glass in front of me could be "rewinded" to five minutes earlier by an observer independent of the universe and time, and then "replayed," would something different occur?  If so, how and why?

Now, a completely different (hypothetical) situation.  An individual is raised in a strict religious household and school, and by the time he leaves this household, has a stubborn and negative disposition all beliefs as a result.  Even when he comes across the teachings of Islam, outright rejects it as fallacy; he may even bash it regularly.  Imagine continues for the rest of his life.

Unless God, having the final judgment, takes his background and circumstances into some serious consideration, the individual's situation probably isn't looking too good for the (at least immediate) hereafter.  Unless the former (that is, God considering the circumstances) is the answer to my question..?

Comments?

Peace,
Michael

_{Or perhaps I've given myself a headache.}

[OPF]

Think of a human as analogous to a computer.

Everything around it (i.e. information, in the form of a change in anything) influences something in its RAM memory (i.e. mind, short term memory, subconcious or otherwise, even long term). At the same time we have the original processes coming from nature building a person up into "them". In effect, a self-programming computer that uses feedback (in every sense of the word) from everything. So you have a person who is "made" by their past experiences, balance of chemicals in the brain (i.e. certain foods & drugs will affect your mood, as will the weather and other things, then you might make a decision you regret, and you get the feedback from that decision as well). Obviously in this case, there is no free will. But remember that the subconcious mind which we can barely even notice 99% of the time unless very relaxed/attentive, is hidden away from the thinking person. So to the person themselves, they'll have free will, but in the grand scheme of things, just another cog in a giant machine called Earth.

But then you have Heisenberg's uncertainty principle coming in. If that's not disproved your whole argument goes out completely.

Either way, the "God" that created all this would know everything happening inside out meaning that it must be the will of the God to have this scenario unfold exactly as it is. To the "thinking brain" the religion is just but as again, just a cog in the works.

Going back to the glass of water, you would percieve that you had a choice whether to drink it or not, but it was set in stone that you would do whatever from the time began. The act of God "judging" also has to be similar to this. In the quran it says people who did bad would neither live nor die, and the only way out of that is to cease existing.

[jonny_k]

Peace all,
Yes indeed bro "OPF" has put it very well. Id like to add that "good and bad" themselves do NOT exist in an absolute sense. This means that something very bad happening to someone(human or other conscious being) in this universe may be a necessity in order to stabilize something/someone(s) in another universe and so on ad infinitum. Thus it only makes sense to talk about good and bad within a particular frame of reference. regarding judgment when it's known that everything happens as it is anyways i.e. causality most modern day judges are well aware of the neurological fact that we are causlally operating machines HOWEVER THEY ARE TOO and so their causal response would be what we again call punishment and since it works if applied correctly it is beneficial and will thus continue. GOD Bless!

[ImamQuranonly]

As Salaamu Alaikum all,

I think we have to see this world that we live in now as a facade to the real reality.  When we realize this, we will realize that we were put here as a test to evaluate our decision making ability, a gift given to us from Allah.  Those who show their gratitude to Allah and develope their abilities well, are able to make the proper choices during the test to please the creator.  Those who don't do the opposite.

The fact that the creator is limited to neither time nor space, thus allowing Him to see, comprehend, understand, etc. all choices, possibilities and scenarios before, during and after their occurances in time, in no way affect the limited "freewill/freechoice" of the subjects of the test.  It is just one of the attributes of the creator that is beyond the comprehension in full of those created by the creator.  The "freewill" being limited means that the Creator has full knowledge of all possible choices and their outcomes of the test subjects, and therefore is All-Knowing.  The test subjects are limited by their created status and thus therefore can't fully comprehend the test that they are in, which is why "faith" is a necessary requirement for those who will succeed.

Salvation is then granted to those who will put their trust in the unseen or guidance from Allah to understand what it takes to pass this test for this life.  The hereafter is the bigger life, so to speak.  Once this facade is over, we will know why it is that we failed or succeeded.  Those that rejected the "faith/trust" and the responsibility to adhere to it, will be the losers for what is best for them in the hereafter.  They will realise that this life was just an illusion for the real life to come, and their testing ground to determine their worthiness of the benefits of the next life. 

Those who consider Allah unjust for putting them through this test will obviously not be ones that past the test and their arrogance for questioning the One who gave them life and the ability to question at all, will be their own downfall.

As Salaamu Alaikum, 

[jonny_k]

Peace "Imamquranonly",
I agree totally in regards to questioning GOD. Doing that would always be an "argument from ignorance" which is unacceptable. What one should do is try and find out the reasons as to why something occurred. the whole evolution in the universe always follows loigical pathways and there are reasons ad infinitum. GOD Bless!

[Tay]

Peace Mik,

Unless God, having the final judgment, takes his background and circumstances into some serious consideration

I believe this is the answer. The "judgement" is actually the manifestation resulting from what we did/thought based on what was on our plate. Some got it easy, some got it tough, but we're all "judged" based on how we dealt with the weight we've carried.