Author Topic: Why isn't it allowed - Alcohol???  (Read 12746 times)

OPF

  • Guest
Re: Why isn't it allowed - Alcohol???
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2007, 07:45:24 AM »
thats what can be flawed of the root method, a root only tells you where the word came from/originated, you have to cross-reference every word and its usage in the quran to find the objective, un-biased meaning(s)

As Arnold Mol has pointed out either in this thread or another thread that we're told to 'avoid' alcohol, but we are also told to 'avoid' idol-worship, can you that on moderation?

I have gone back and forth on this issue, changed my mind many times... first it was expressely forbidden, next only in moderation, and now its best to not take it all if one can help it

Idol worship is forbidden in other Quranic verses.

Jack

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Why isn't it allowed - Alcohol???
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2007, 08:46:16 AM »
okay these are arnold mol's words from another thread that i am quoting because he put it better than I could:

Quote
Peace,

This is a sensetive argument, but mostly it is based on the demand for the so-called only magic word that can forbid things, haram. When researching the Quran and it's overall use of words, it can be clearly seen that there are more words used to make something restricted.

2:219. They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say: ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit.? And they ask you how much are they to give, Say: ?The excess.? It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

5:90. O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the one that is distanced from God(shaytain=shaat=long rope). You shall AVOID it so that you may be successful.

The magic words are: You shall AVOID it

Let's look for them:

4:31 If you avoid the major sins that you are forbidden against, then We will cancel your existing sins and admit you to a generous entrance.

9:115 And it is not for God to misguide a people after He guided them, until He makes clear to them what they should avoid. God is aware of all things.

22:30 Thus, and whosoever honours God's restrictions, then it is better for him with His Lord. And the livestock is made lawful for you except what is recited upon you. So avoid the foulness of idols and avoid saying false statements.

39:17 And for those who avoid serving evil, and turn to God in repentance, for them are glad tidings. So give the good news to My servants.

So is a little serving evil allowed in your view? A little idol-worship? A little bit of false statements?

53:32 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the Earth, and while you were embryos in your mothers' wombs. Therefore, do not acclaim yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.

So a little major sins is allowed?

2:222 They ask you about menstruation: say, "It is harmful; you shall avoid sexual intercourse with the women during menstruation; do not approach them until they are rid of it. Once they are rid of it, you may have intercourse with them in the manner designed by GOD. GOD loves the repenters, and He loves those who are clean."

Is also a little sex allowed during menstruation? And the 'you shall avoid it' is clearly explained in the sentence after it, 'do not approach them until..', so 'avoid' is equal to 'do not do it all'.

6:68 If you see those who mock our revelations, you shall avoid them until they delve into another subject. If the devil causes you to forget, then, as soon as you remember, do not sit with such evil people.

So we can sit a little bit with them or must we completly distance ourselves from then till they change the subject?

16:36 We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry." Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors.

22:30 Those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness.

So a little idolatry is allowed?

23:3 And they avoid vain talk.

And a little vain talk is allowed?

49:12 O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.

Here we must avoid, and the sentence behind it is intruiging, as even a little bit is harmful.

My point is that to say the word haram is not the only one used to restrict/forbid things, is not correct when the Quran is investigated. Also in the Hereafter we get drinks that don't intoxicate, if a little bit was allowed, why then make them non-intoxicate?

56:18 With cups and jugs and a cup/wine flowing easily and plentifully.
19 They do not get headache from it, and nor they be drunk/exhausted/intoxicated .

As for the sentence that says we make intoxicants from the fruits:

16:67 And from the palm trees' and the grapes' fruits you take from it intoxication , and a good/beautiful provision , that in that (is) an evidence/sign (E) to a nation reasoning/understanding .

Does this immediatly imply intoxicants are allowed for pleasure? Also in older times, alcohol was used in medical uses and chemical uses. As 2:219 clearly implies, there is more harm then use in them, which is acknowledged in the medical world, where narcotics are used for narcoses and anaesthetics, and is harmfull for the body even in small amounts.

I myself used to drink and smoke weed, and i too made use of 'haram is not used' but after research on the Quran, i came to the clear conclusion this is only an escapegoat. When God gives us an advice, who are we to neglect it? There are only few who know their limits, and even then we are still neglecting God's advice. I myself also thought always i'm strong and mature enough to handle it, but this is not what is in dispute here, it is about the words used.
To say only the 'haram' can forbid it is not true. Please bare this in mind. I understand that you're not a drinker, just sometimes in little amounts, but that is not what on dispute, i know you're a mature person who can handle herself. But God used the same words with idolworship and major harmfull deeds, and it is clear then that the use of words must be taken serious. I hope you will consider this next time, before you type something like God didn't forbid it, as God also said not to allow things He restricted.

"When man doesn't change his life to fit his faith, he will change his faith to fit his life."

Peace

Link for reference (go a bit past half-way down)

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10889.30
You gotta follow the truth even it brings the whole thing crumbling down around you - Sam Tyler, Life on Mars (UK)

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense

Jack

  • Administrator
  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2781
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Why isn't it allowed - Alcohol???
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2007, 09:18:33 AM »
other posts from other members:

sis myr (former member)

Quote
Salam Maria,

>>>>I totally understand the logic in this two verses you mentioned but still there is never a verse that says "Alcohol is forbidden(haram)<<<<<

If I follow this reasoning: in Quran there is no specific verse stating exactely "khamr is haram", therefore let's apply it to other things such as killing, shirk, oppression, fornication, stealing, lies, etc in Quran, I don't see any verse explicitly stating "killing is haram" but I can see the same verb "hurima" (made haram) used for ithm that describes khamr, used for shirk, fornication, killing etc., so if I follow again this reasoning, we can give ourselves the green light to kill, lie, fornicate etc. and say after all "there is no verse that calls it "killing is haram" so we are ok.     

>>>>Do you know why God says there are a benefit too? It must be therfore He don't have made it forbidden, right!?<<<
There is benefit in anything God the All-Mighty created, including the dead meat, pigs, and blood and this is why we are permitted to eat from them if we found ourselves in a difficult situation of survival.  God the All-Mighty has made anything haram hallal in some specific or extrem situations, including khamr, killing, lies etc. because there is still a benefit in those extreme situation  BUT YET everything HE MADE HARAM (hurima) has been called "ithm", "fawahesh", and "bagh'y".  Another example is fornication is called "fahisha" and in Quran we are reminded that "hurima" (were made haram) all al-fawahesh (plural of fahisha), does it mean because there is no verse that says "zina is haram" that it is not?
Hunting in a state of hurum is also "made haram" to us, does it mean there is no benefit in the meat during the hurum period? of course not.


>>>>Don't take me wrong, I'm not a drunkards rarely drink that stuff at all but I think we shall be careful to not put an haram stamp on things God don't have forbidden<<<<

My point Sister is that the haram stamp was put by God through HIS "hurima" (made haram) that applies to many other things in Quran and that in everything made haram there is still a benefit but this would not negate the "hurima" for reasons explained in Quran.  Please don't take it personal, I thought we were discussing the Quran and not what you may do.

>>>>>>And God don't run out of words!!!!!!<<<<<<

I agree.  I would add it is also a big mistake to accept some of HIS words and ignore others.  Quran is a whole and for all of us who claim to have a "rational" and "logical" approach toward the Quran, it is not anymore rational when part of the Quran is abrogated on the sole basis that God the All-Mighty should have stated "X is haram" instead of just embrassing what came in Quran, that is, "are made haram to you all the Y" and that X is one value of Y :-).

Peace. Myr.

and another one:

Quote
Let me explain why I believe the khamr is not allowed or is "haram":

I am sure you would agree with me if I say if A is equal to B and B is equal to C, A would be equal to C , wouldn't you?

Now in Quran, we are told in verse 7:33 that "hurima" (made haram) any "ithm". And in verse 2:219 , we are told there is "ithm kabeer" (BIG ithm) in khamr.  So what would be the logical conclusion?  Please note that I did not translate any words but kept them in Arabic to avoid shifting the subject through all kinds of elaboration and philosophy around the translations we tend to see on this forum.

Peace.  Myr. 

arnold again:

Quote
God doesn't say there is some benefit in wine. He says there is some benefit in khamr, refering to that intoxicants can be used for medical uses. Khamr is intoxicants, things that cover the mind. Not specifically wine. Just as He says we make khamr from trees, again implying medical uses.

To translate khamr only as wine is wrong. He forbids khamr=intoxicants for pleasure consumption. You have to look at the context of the verses to know what He means in certain verses with khamr.

That red wine is healthy is not correct. Alcohol is processed immediately by your liver from the moment it enters your bloodstream, this shows your body cannot use it. It is the red-colouring from the red-grape that is healthy, and can be consumed with red-grape juice, no need for the wine.
You gotta follow the truth even it brings the whole thing crumbling down around you - Sam Tyler, Life on Mars (UK)

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense

simple

  • Guest
Re: Why isn't it allowed - Alcohol???
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2009, 09:37:17 AM »
 :peace:

Alcohol isn't even mentioned in the quran, like a lot of other things..shit,piss (which hindus eat and drink), poison, mercury..........you can think of a hundred and one things...can't you.


a very very pure Muslim who doesn't even drink alcohol , may have alcohol produeced inside his belly without his permission???

 :laugh:

Quote

Alcohol dehydrogenase exists in the human liver because a small amount of alcohol is generated in the gastrointestinal tract by fermentation processes of normal bacterial flora, so everyone has some free alcohol circulating in the bloodstream at all times, whether or not he or she drinks

 :D








 

SwedenMajidah

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2106
  • Karma +9/-3
  • Gender: Female
Re: Why isn't it allowed - Alcohol???
« Reply #64 on: June 12, 2009, 07:43:26 AM »
:peace:

Alcohol isn't even mentioned in the quran, like a lot of other things..shit,piss (which hindus eat and drink), poison, mercury..........you can think of a hundred and one things...can't you.


a very very pure Muslim who doesn't even drink alcohol , may have alcohol produeced inside his belly without his permission???

 :laugh:

 :D








 


Haha well that was a good one...

Maybe therfore we shall not overdo the intake of alcohol then...

peace
Maria

simple

  • Guest
Re: Why isn't it allowed - Alcohol???
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2009, 11:11:01 AM »

Haha well that was a good one...

Maybe therfore we shall not overdo the intake of alcohol then...

peace
Maria

Hi Majidah,

Off course we should never over do anything..........I think i read once somewhere even water can make you drunk- if you are over dehydrated and you drink in excess as far as i can recall or something.

 :peace:

progressive1993

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Why isn't it allowed - Alcohol???
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2009, 11:50:10 AM »
Hi Majidah,

Off course we should never over do anything..........I think i read once somewhere even water can make you drunk- if you are over dehydrated and you drink in excess as far as i can recall or something.

 :peace:


Water doesnt make you drunk. The only negative effect of water is, if drunken really excessivley (like 15-20 liters) in a short period of time, then you can die, because you lose the salt in your body and maybe something else occurs as well.


Peace
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

simple

  • Guest
Re: Why isn't it allowed - Alcohol???
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2009, 01:58:00 PM »

Thanks Pro,

I actually forgot, you are 100% right.


Water intoxication with some experiences of people.

http://www.abc.net.au/dimensions/dimensions_health/Transcripts/s871112.htm

 :handshake: