Hirsi Ali

[jankren]

I just watched Hirsi Ali's appearance on my favorite talkshow 'Realtime w/ Bill Maher', and I think she is an extremely intelligent woman. She is very straightforward in presenting her great views. Although she seems to kind of hate his former faith Islam, but I could understand her. I too would probably feel as traumatic as her if I faced a similar tragedy which she experienced.

Anyway, in the show she is not even reluctant to oppose the opinion of a Republican Senator participant that people of every religion lives side by side equally throughout history in Muslim countries in the Middle East and Africa. She argues that non-Muslims in most Middle Eastern countries can live peacefully only if they 'play by the rules' as described according to the Dhimmi system of each Muslim country. Though I feel a little bit offended listening to her somehow, but I fully agree with what she says. I believe the Dhimmi system is bullcrap and should not have no more place in this world.

So, is anyone here familiar with Hirsi Ali wanna share your opinion?

Peace ,

[Arnold Yasin]

Salaam,

I am from Holland, and I can tell you that she was kicked out for lying all the time. She isn't out there to tell the truth, she only wants status.

Somebody also posted it on my Forum:

http://ourbeacon.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=462

[BOOST]

PEace Bro Jankren

I haven't heard of this lady at all.

But which country still uses a dhimmi system? 

[jankren]

Ayaan Hirschi Ali has been caught on so many lies in The Netherlands, she fled to America. Nobody really took her serious anymore.

She tried to represent Somali Islam as being the same as mainstream Islam. She was invited many times to conferences with Muslims in Holland but denied. She doesn't want to solve things, she wants to provoke and let people think she is a 'victim' of Islam.

She has lied about her youth, as a tv-show showed how her brother explains she never experienced war or hardship, that she wasn't forced into marriage but accepted it herself so she could flee her family.

Do you have any references to back your accusations above bro Arnold? These days it is hard to believe in what people say about someone easily you know.

[Arnold Yasin]

It is all in Dutch. The general feeling in Holland is relief she is gone, she did more harm then good.

[Tay]

Peace Jankren, all,

I love "Real Time", but I gotta say that was one of the worst episodes ever. It was so dry and bland, and whenever she talked in her tiny little voice, everyone just got silent as if she was saying something profound - which she wasn't. Bill's intro and immense respect for her set the tone for a terrible discussion, because whenever she cut somebody off, they just listened in silence, Bill included, even when she went off on an irrelevant tangent.

While I agree that the dhimmi system is asenine, what the Lebanese republican mentioned was that Christians and Muslims lived side by side without problems in *Palestine* (prior to Israel) and Ethiopa. This is a truth, in Palestine atleast, yet she said it was false and that they lived in a dhimmi system - which is impossible since there was no islamic government in Palestine to my knowledge. I'm not sure how it is now, though.

In any case, I don't know much about the lady, but my first impression was not too good.

Peace,
Tay

[lilyfleur]

Peace,

Ayann Hirsi Ali is a former Dutch parliamentarian. She has just written a book called Infidel. Time magazine named her one of the 100 most influential leaders of the world. She is currently living in Washington, D.C.. She collaborated with a man named Theo van Gogh on a short film called Submission, that was, according the two of them, based on the harsh treatment of women in the Qur'an. Van Gogh was shot by a Dutch-born Moroccan two months after the film first aired. She was born in Somalia where female genital mutilation is practiced. She clearly had an extreme Muslim experience.

I can't speak of her personally, as I don't know her. However, it is clear to me that she is very misguided. This can happen very easily to people who practice their religion in an extreme way. Perhaps if she ever comes to know the people of this forum she will see what Islam is truly about. For now though, her outspoken ways, and outward beauty (people wise up) are earning her book deals, magazine spreads (she appears in this months Vogue), political positions, and now an offer to become a visiting scholar at the Washington, D.C. based American Enterprise Institute. She has said of her past statements: "I was young, fiery, and impatient when I said the things I did. I now realize that the changes I want to make won't be immediate." She is quoted as referring to the Prophet Muhammed as a pervert and a tyrannt.

Writer Ian Buruma helped in making a movie about van Gogh's death (Murder in Amsterdam) states: "There's a lot of admiration for the way she has spoken up about oppressed women, but she has the zealousness of the convert on this topic. She may be speaking on behalf of Muslim women, but I have yet to meet one who feels allied with her. Mostly, they feel condescended to. Others just resent the way she has stirred things up." 

I give her a big thumbs down, but pray that she will one day come to know the true message of the Qur'an on women and just how very lucky we are.

p, l, f, and j,
lf

[BOOST]

PEace Sis Lilly

Thanks for the info about her. From what I understand from you it seems like she's another "Noni Darwish" or "Wafa Sultan" character. I'll have to read up on her more, you all got me intrigued.

PEace all

[jankren]

Personally I would rather have 1000 Hirsi Alis than 10 traditional Muslim women who are too afraid to speak out against the oppression toward them due to 'Cultural Islam'. I do not think she is as 'evil' as some people think. I believe women like her are way better than those who submissively agree for example to cover their entire body and face, be kept at home by their husbands all the time, and be made one of multiple wives.

Peace ,

[decepticus]

Personally I would rather have 1000 Hirsi Alis than 10 traditional Muslim women who are too afraid to speak out against the oppression toward them due to 'Cultural Islam'. I do not think she is as 'evil' as some people think. I believe women like her are way better than those who submissively agree for example to cover their entire body and face, be kept at home by their husbands all the time, and be made one of multiple wives.

Peace ,

I personally can't stand her. I saw her last year in a program (supposed to take her defence) in the french television and I had a very very bad impression on her! I had not heard about her before. I did not feel the need to know more about her : she is the last of my concerns. Oh! And I prefer dealing with 1000 traditional women  (who are more likely to hear a Qur'an alone based discussion)  than 1 ignorant (and stubborn) Ayaan Hhirsi  !

Wikipedia can help :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

And this is a link to a page of her blog containing reactions after her "show" in the french television :
http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/ayaanhirsiali/2005/06/i_am_really_sho.html

Peace 

[jankren]

Oh! And I prefer dealing with 1000 traditional women  (who are more likely to hear a Qur'an alone based discussion)  than 1 ignorant (and stubborn) Ayaan Hhirsi  !

Has anyone ever told people like her about non-traditional Islam?

[Arnold Yasin]

Yes, she was confronted by moderate groups, but still she just attacked it. Her behaviour till now has only showed she is not interrested at all, she just wants to attack. Maybe in the future. But she is very hypocrite, as she rejects religions, but she works for the Christian thinktank of the American Government.

[BOOST]

PEace Bro

If she wrote a bunch of books on islam she should at least know what she's talking about. how do you write a book about islam and never hear of quran aloners? people seem to think this all started with us on free-minds. it didn't even start with rashad khalifa. there were a few whole madrasas that were dedicated to quran alone without hadith but these madrasas were supressed. also, ideas from leading imams and their students within well-known madrasas also professed very progressive ideas about women using the quran alone but were quickly supressed and considered blasphemous. so this is not a new idea. and it wouldn't take much effort for someone who asserts that she is an expert about islam to find these thoughts. they aren't destroyed. they're still there, they're just frowned upon. fatima mernissi explains it in her writing. so does laila ahmed. hirsi ali seems to be an expert on her own personal experience that is tainted with african culture, family problems, and a sunni backdrop. genital mutilation happens nowhere else in the world except africa. it is an old old african tradition dating back to nubian antiquity and maybe even earlier. in fact the most extreme form is called the pharoanic circumcision. i think everyone would respect her alot more if she just stuck to explaining her life rather than pretending to be an inside expert on islam.

[Roshan]

Peace:

She is a performing animal. She has rehearsed a routine and repeats it to those who want to hear it. Unfortunately the Sunni/Shia types are too stupid to rebutt her points (in fact some of them may have some legitimacy in those religions). The right wing are becoming more and more acquainted with the Sunni religion and their hierarchy responds by showing resentment at the fact such questions should be asked.

Have you seen her film 'submission'?

Roshan

[Arnold Yasin]

No, she hasn't heard of them, and even if she did, she would not accept their views. Because she would believe it only to be a modern trend that will also disappear eventualy. She is hardcore atheist. She is out there to tell Islam is wrong, she is not out there to find an acceptable Islam or acceptable belief in the Quran. Not in the way she is acting now. And she now works for the hardcore rightwing of the American politics, I doubt she will accept any form of belief in the Quran.

By the way Boost, Fatima Mernissi is also from Holland, and I must say sadly that her writings also dissappoint me mostly. She is also stuck with traditional Islam, and doesn't know or accept that this wasn't the original Islam. She is trying a new view on Islam, reforming it, believing she is deviating from Muhammed's Islam. For example her book on Democracy in Islam only focusses on the monarchies in Islamic history, and completely ignores the fact that the Quran refers to Democracy.

[jankren]

No, she hasn't heard of them, and even if she did, she would not accept their views. Because she would believe it only to be a modern trend that will also disappear eventualy. She is hardcore atheist. She is out there to tell Islam is wrong, she is not out there to find an acceptable Islam or acceptable belief in the Quran. Not in the way she is acting now. And she now works for the hardcore rightwing of the American politics, I doubt she will accept any form of belief in the Quran.

As I said earlier, her hatred for everything related to Islam is probably caused by trauma due to the tragedy which befell her. I think all she need is someone to explain everything to her kindly and patiently. I believe that way she would eventually understand because Im sure she is way more rational than average people.

[Arnold Yasin]

Let's see what happens when my book comes out. I'm writing a book now in Dutch on the Quranic System and how Islam was distorted into a religion by the Persian Abbasids. If she responds to that positively, then I will be convinced. Hope is always there. But if the Quranic System also intervenes with her plans, she will of course also reject it. She doesn't work for the right wing of America's thinktank for nothing, she likes that enviroment of the elite.

[jankren]

Let's see what happens when my book comes out. I'm writing a book now in Dutch on the Quranic System and how Islam was distorted into a religion by the Persian Abbasids. If she responds to that positively, then I will be convinced. Hope is always there. But if the Quranic System also intervenes with her plans, she will of course also reject it. She doesn't work for the right wing of America's thinktank for nothing, she likes that enviroment of the elite.

Hmm sounds interesting. Are you gonna make your book accessible for us here in English?

[Arnold Yasin]

Yes, I write it similtaneously in English. When I write a chapter in Dutch, I translate it also in English, here is a small part that I have translated already:

Part of my new book 'The Challenge of Islam: What Islam made such a succes and why it can be again in the future'.

Translated from Dutch into English

Chapter 'Religion or System?'

The Quran challenges mankind constantly. To write a similair Surah, not only in style and beauty, but especially in result of the Laws it gives. Even the existence of Allah must be tested, it cannot be based on blind belief. It must be based on evidence and not emotion or feelings. Because of this, the Quran introduced an approach to life and God which was unfound in any Religion on earth.

2:23 (For the real skeptic We have a reason friendly offer.) If you are still in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto Our servant (Muhammad), call and set up (a committee, commission, organization, association of the highest order) all your helpers besides Allah, and then produce just one Surah like this, if you are men of Truth.

[[Bring some chapters of comparable merit that even come close to it in magnificence, eloquence, grandeur and wisdom 10:38, 11:13, 17:88.]

To bring in the Theory of the Quran into Practice was a matter of faith, after man had observed some of the claims it gives. The bringing into practice was only partially based on faith. But its difference with Religions is that the results of the Quranic Laws can be experienced immediately or over long term in this life. The reward or punishment was not completely moved unto the next life, which makes it then untestable, but the results are partially given in this life. This was a Revolution of thinking which was unheard in mankind's thinking. Because of this, people could test immediately if they followed and understood the Laws correctly.

3:191 .... "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire.”

Any bye-laws could be adapted in when they gave no more positive results. In this way people prevented to be stuck in tradition or following of useless laws and beliefs. All concepts of Islam are thus possible to be tested, and the correct understanding will always stick out because of its result in this life.

17:36 And you shall not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning. (And so, the insane and the disabled will have their incapacities taken into account in a court of law.)

[SwedenMajidah]

Salam,

I haven't heard of her but I have heard of that "submission" film and the death of the journalist Theo van Gogh.

But I'm not surprised at all, muslims from extreme conditions are often very angry and seek for revenge.

she is blind and she cannot see the truth in that state she is in right now.

We can always hope she will come to realisations of the truth in Islam and Quran.

Peace
Sis Majidah

[jankren]

Bro Arnold, dont you think it is better to use the word 'God' (In Dutch) instead of 'Allah' in your book? However, it all depends on your target of audience though. I think using the word 'Allah' is okay if you only targeting Muslim audience.

[Arnold Yasin]

I both use God and Allah in my works, depends on the sentence and its purpose.

As for Theo van Gogh, he was more killed because he attacked Morrocans, he kept offending them, and Mohammed B, the killer, was a very frustrated young man, who was seeking identity. He found it in extremist groups and fooled himself by believing he did it for Allah. When you study him, you can see it was because he was seeking identity.

[Tay]

Peace,

Some of the text in the article is hyperlinked for those who wanna dig deeper @
http://radio.weblogs.com/0116902/2006/05/12.html#a4337

AYAN HIRSI ALI'S LIES

"Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali has admitted she lied to the immigration authorities in the early 1990s in order to obtain political asylum in the Netherlands. The Dutch TV programme Zembla has established that, rather than fleeing the violence and warfare in her land of origin Somalia, as she claimed, she spent more than ten years in reasonable comfort in Kenya before applying for asylum first in Germany and then in the Netherlands. She said she lied because she was afraid of being turned down a second time.

However, she told the leadership of the conservative VVD party the true story when she applied to become a VVD candidate in 2002. The party has confirmed this. Apparently, fellow VVD member Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk recently told her that, if she had been minister at the time and had known the truth, she would have had Ms Hirsi Ali deported."

Her real name is Ayan Hirsi Magan. She lied about her date of birth, her story as a war refugee, her family, the 'threats' from her family, the 'persecution', her personal history. In short, she is indeed the calculated and manipulative woman with a personal agenda many have accused her of. As a right-wing neocon she relies on lies, wealth and power. She is a completely unreliable person.

She was not forced to marry. She even left her husband without any consequences at all. There were no threats from her family, no revenge.
From the age of 7 she lived in Kenya (the family left Somalia before the civil war) and received a free education from the UNHCR. The Islamic school she attended was the best in the country. She lived in a relatively prosperous part of Nairobi and had a room to herself.
To secure for herself a promising career she besmirched her family and the Islamic background that gave her a good education. She deliberately painted a black picture of Islam that she never experienced as such, only to profit from it. The Dutch party she is an mp for, the VVD, knew she had lied. They used her in their anti-Islamist and anti-left campaign. And Ayan Hirsi 'Ali' presented the world with a fancy story it very much liked to hear.
11:41:25 AM    trackback [1]   



? Copyright 2006.

[Haroon]

dear God.

I cannot stand Hirsi Ali.

She is just an attention seeker, and a liar.

[Neh22]

Salaam alaykum.

Let me tell you something. Ayaan Hirsi was raised in Kenya, with mainly Saudi Arabian influences. Apparently, those who raised her felt that in order to be closer to Islam they must embrace Saudi Arabian culture. That's an erroneous assumption and shows that they cannot differentiate between culture and religion.

Therefore, raised that way, while being told "this is true Islam" and in her book, it is clear that she uses the way she was raised as her main basis of rejecting and insulting Islam. That shows that she did not choose to learn more about Islam from the Word of God but rather through culture and extremism. How can one be regarded as being intelligent when they choose to judge without learning about it, objectively, from the truest source (the Qur'an)? Therefore, I do not regard Ayaan Hirsi as an intelligent woman or even as an honourable woman. She has lied, including to the Dutch government and officials, many times. I feel nothing but apathy towards her. It's for God to give her whatever reward or punishment He wills to give her on Judgement Day.

[you gunna eat that]

Salaam
Hirsi is right to critique cultural traditions like female circumcision but her general attack on Muslims and political views are pretty outlandish.  She's just as much of an extremist as the crazies with the beards and all.
See this link below.
http://scienceblogs.com/tfk/2011/01/ayaan_hirsi_ali_should_not_tes.php
Peace

[عوني]

Never watched any of her garbage shows but she sounds like a moron. I'm all for democracy and against extremism and I think Hirsi Ali is a moron. A true European-wananbe Somalian terrorist supporting Israhell just because she dislikes Islam and Muslims. She whines about how she doesn't get enough viewers when she talks about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but maybe if she didin't have her Somalian head up her arse so much she would get more viewers. I'd love to debate her politically and show her what kind of a moron she is. She would just pull the lame basic Western tactic which is to claim that Israel is secular(despite the fact that Israel considers itself a Jewish homeland) and 'democratic'. Hilariously she lives in a country and comes from a country that is the opposite towards democracy. Oh well Hirsi Ali keep hating on Muslims and eventually when the Arab world becomes democracy, you'll be among the extremists to be banned from entering the Arab countries. First rule of democracy is to keep the countries clean from extremists and morons. Hirsi Ali and Anjem Choudary would make a great couple.

This fascist is good at cooperating with right-wing extremists such as that Dutch Nazi and is good at supporting a terrorist state that kills civilians(especially children). Her arguments are about as primitive as the argument of an average Westerner. 

[Man of Faith]

Quran should, optimally, be learned with as little bias as possible. If you involve traditions in it and these are your expectations, then if you ever come to your senses, many people become opposed to Quran because of their preconceptions and they associate that text with sectarian Islam.

Even if you are grown up in a sectarian environment and Quran is your "holy scripture", you need to consider that what people in general believe must not be true, even about individual words. It is sad to see people who reject a text because of ideas others conceive out of it instead of analyzing it yourself carefully and if ideas seem too farfetched then study the involved words.

Doing so with words that disturbed me brought me new insights into a whole new realm of information. I did always remain vigilant towards words translated as such as believe, contact prayer, disbeliever, Islam and  many other words and I was right to be so for they were not correct traditionally.

A couple of years ago I had no plans of learning Arabic and I loathed the idea of doing it because of such a great project it would be, but finally I realized I had to immerse myself into it anyway. It did simply not work out anymore. And since then I have studied it like a child by learning by my own through observation of grammar as to how words occur in the text and study word origins. I think that is the only way I can do it unbiased. I read it with the mind that anything can be wrong even dumbproof combinations and prepositions. I try to use my knowledge of linguistics as a tool.

Now I can read a lot of the text fluently minus the meaning of words which I have to occasionally read up on in a dictionary. And my Arabic is very different from the typical classical Arabic. One can always wonder who is right.

It could probably not be a mere coincidence because if you consider that I use available dictionaries to find definitions that suit the context. And I am of the stance that Arabic words have only one meaning due to the nature of Arabic. So it must be wrong that there are several entirely different definitions in them.

The amusing thing is that the passages are actually beginning to make sense instead of just portraying a Pagan religion induced by ignorant sectarian clerics and scholars who tried to interpret it with their bias in mind.

Salaam

[عوني]

Quran should, optimally, be learned with as little bias as possible. If you involve traditions in it and these are your expectations, then if you ever come to your senses, many people become opposed to Quran because of their preconceptions and they associate that text with sectarian Islam.

Even if you are grown up in a sectarian environment and Quran is your "holy scripture", you need to consider that what people in general believe must not be true, even about individual words. It is sad to see people who reject a text because of ideas others conceive out of it instead of analyzing it yourself carefully and if ideas seem too farfetched then study the involved words.

Doing so with words that disturbed me brought me new insights into a whole new realm of information. I did always remain vigilant towards words translated as such as believe, contact prayer, disbeliever, Islam and  many other words and I was right to be so for they were not correct traditionally.

A couple of years ago I had no plans of learning Arabic and I loathed the idea of doing it because of such a great project it would be, but finally I realized I had to immerse myself into it anyway. It did simply not work out anymore. And since then I have studied it like a child by learning by my own through observation of grammar as to how words occur in the text and study word origins. I think that is the only way I can do it unbiased. I read it with the mind that anything can be wrong even dumbproof combinations and prepositions. I try to use my knowledge of linguistics as a tool.

Now I can read a lot of the text fluently minus the meaning of words which I have to occasionally read up on in a dictionary. And my Arabic is very different from the typical classical Arabic. One can always wonder who is right.

It could probably not be a mere coincidence because if you consider that I use available dictionaries to find definitions that suit the context. And I am of the stance that Arabic words have only one meaning due to the nature of Arabic. So it must be wrong that there are several entirely different definitions in them.

The amusing thing is that the passages are actually beginning to make sense instead of just portraying a Pagan religion induced by ignorant sectarian clerics and scholars who tried to interpret it with their bias in mind.

Salaam

It's great that you'd like to learn Arabic. Not like this moron named Hirsi Ali that comes from a sh'tty third-world 'country' trying to target Islam and Muslims for the sake of some money from European right-wingers.


It's sad that some people struggle to learn Arabic while those who know Arabic throw the language away. Jesus once said to never throw pearls at swines. Basically, Arabic is too holy and too advanced for morons like Hirsi Ali to speak. Keep Arabic cleans from such tinfoil asshats. One of the biggest mistake that God has made is that he has thrown pearls at swines such as Hirsi Ali. There are plenty of people that wants to learn Arabic and they'd do everything to learn the language. Why does God not throw pearls at them instead? Not at disgusting morons like Hirsi Ali.




Anyway keep learning Arabic it's not really a hard language but I shouldn't talk as it was my first language. I can speak Arabic (Palestinian-Syrian accent) fluently. Personally I'd say that Swedish is a lot more harder to learn(Not to speak but to write).

[huruf]

God does throw pearls. I have struggled many years with Arabic because of the added difficulty of people using dialects and getting some kind of schiphrenia with the whole thing, but right now I am very happy that I did all the effort. The amount of work I am doing in Qur'an es helping many people who do not have the tool fo the language and have to take as authentic the translations that are around.

I thank God very much for that gift.

Salaam