Salat and Ruku' Connection

[loli]

Dear Brothers and Sisters of FM,

salam,

Traditionally we know that ruku'(bowing) is a part of Salat mechanics.
However..when reading the Quran, it is found that ruku' doesn't only implies to physical bowing,

reading 77:48-50

77:48 And when was said to them: "Bow ." They do not bow .
77:49 Calamity(on) that day to the falsifiers.
77:50 So with which Hadith(speech) after it, they believe?

--> people who wont bow it the ppl who falsifies

Checked thru Lane and found out that ruku' can also denotes humility or self-abashment either in worship or in other cases.

Therefore humility fits best in the case for 77:48~50.

There is some verses in the Quran which have both Salat and Ruku' in the same verse, however in most cases, it is separated with other actions,
example;

2:43 And keep up/take care of the Salat and give/bring(wa atu) the Zakat and bow with the bowing.

Here we can see that the act of Salat and Ruku' is separated from the act of giving/bringing Zakat. which gives us a clue that ruku' in this verse is not related to Salat.

This is the same case with 3:43 and 5:55

In 2:125, we are instructed to take maqam ibrahim as a place for Salat, in this verse also the act of ruku' is also separated by other actions with salat.

In 48:29, it is observe that the act of ruku' can be seen by others..which is leaning towards physical ruku'/bowing.
However problem arise on how can anybody link ruku' in this verse with salat?

Need some input from members of FM, maybe brothers and sisters here can give me a different perspective or approach to link salat and ruku'.

Thanx in advance

salam

[tanveermd]

Peace loli,

Thank you for your excellent observations.

My current understanding is that "wa" does not always separate different things in al-qur'aan, but sometimes separates various parts/attributes of the same thing, or separates an explanation/description of something, depending on the context.

For example:

2:231 ............And remember God's blessings towards you, and what was sent down to you of the scripture and the wisdom, He warns you with it..............

Here "scripture" AND "wisdom" refer to the same revelation from The God.

11:114 And you shall hold the salat during the two edges of the day, and the near parts of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.

Here "two edges of the day" AND "the near parts of the night" are referring to the same time period, "the near parts of the night" being a description of which two edges of the day.

Similarly,

2:43 And uphold the salat, and contribute towards betterment/zakat, and humbly kneel with those who kneel humbly.

When one upholds salat, one also contributes to "zakat"/betterment/purification, and also becomes humble so the latter two are facets of salat. Salat is one of the ways by which one can contribute towards "zakat", and one of the ways one can be humble/irka3oo, so "ruku" would be part of salat in 2:43

Point #1:  Humility is a mental thing and it is difficult to physically see when someone else is being humble in their hearts, so when we are being told to kneel/be humble with those who kneel/are humble, how can we do that if we cannot clearly tell when others are being humble ? Thus it is more likely that it is referring to a physical act also, especially in context of salat, and most likely is referring to a group physical activity, of course accompanied with mental humility.

Point #2:  If salat and ruku are referring to two different things in 2:34 then do you mean to say there is no humility in salat So according to your point of view, one should be able to uphold salat without any humility !!

As you also pointed out, according to 48:29, PHYSICAL "RUKU" AND "SUJUD" ARE POSSIBLE !! and according to my above explanation, "ruku" can be linked to "salat" per 2:43, which is most likely physical as per point #1 above.

In my understanding the "ruku" during salat is both physical and mental, because a physical "ruku" without a simultaneous mental humility will be meaningless and will not be "ruku".

Physical ruku' is not bowing. According to the Qur'aan one is to go down and sit on the knees. See 38:24: 

"? he fell "raki'an"?" (38:24) 

One cannot fall into bowing, however, one can fall to one's knees. Therefore the sectarian bowing position has no support in the Qur'aan.

Of course, "ruku'" also means humility, so we should be humble in our salat, which is also "ruku'".

Perhaps that is what is being referred to in 77:48 that when it will be said to them "irka3oo", they will bow instead of kneel, thus they do not know, because they have been following false hadeeth. Now anyone can bow humbly too but still that will be false. It cannot be referring to humility alone because how will one demonstrate humility when ordered to "irka3oo" ? Imagine you are sanding in front of me and I order you to "irkaoo", how will you fulfill that order

Of course the kneeling has to be accompanied by mental humility too, and then it will show the humility of the mind, heart and body in harmony.

What do you think ?

[loli]

Peace loli,

Thank you for your excellent observations.

Peace Tanveer

Thanx for your reply Tanveer. I will examine your reply with any knowledge that i have.

My current understanding is that "wa" does not always separate different things in al-qur'aan, but sometimes separates various parts/attributes of the same thing, or separates an explanation/description of something, depending on the context.

For example:

2:231 ............And remember God's blessings towards you, and what was sent down to you of the scripture and the wisdom, He warns you with it..............

I understood your argument and have the similar opinion as yours, that sometimes in the in the suitable context, denotes the different attributes of the same thing.

11:114 And you shall hold the salat during the two edges of the day, and the near parts of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.

Here "two edges of the day" AND "the near parts of the night" are referring to the same time period, "the near parts of the night" being a description of which two edges of the day.

Previously i have tried to consider two salats per day understanding, however i believe that three salats per day fits the Quran as a whole. I have my reasons and it is not because of the "wa" in 11:114. However i would prefer not to discuss in this thread as the purpose of this thread is to find connection betwen Salat and Ruku'.

Similarly,

2:43 And uphold the salat, and contribute towards betterment/zakat, and humbly kneel with those who kneel humbly.

When one upholds salat, one also contributes to "zakat"/betterment/purification, and also becomes humble so the latter two are facets of salat. Salat is one of the ways by which one can contribute towards "zakat", and one of the ways one can be humble/irka3oo, so "ruku" would be part of salat in 2:43

Thanx for your opinion. Firstly, let me bring the whole context of the verse for our reference.

from Muhammad & Samira
2:40 You Israel's sons and daughters , remember My blessing , which I blessed on you, and fulfill/complete with My promise/contract , I fulfill/complete with your promise/contract , and (only) Me so be terrified/monkish of Me .
2:41 And believe with what I descended, confirming to what (is) with you, and do not be (the) first disbeliever with it, and do not buy/volunteer with My verses/evidences a small/little price, and (only) Me, so fear and obey Me.
2:42 And do not confuse/mix/cover the correct/truth with the falsehood, and you hide/conceal the correct/truth and you are knowing.
2:43 And keep up/take care of the prayers and give/bring the charity/purification and bow with the bowing.

Here we can see there is a list of instructions that is commanded to the children of Israel
Children of israel is commended to
i. Remember Allah's blessing
ii.Fulfill Allah's promise
iii. Be terrified of Allah
iv. Belive what Allah have decended confirming what is with the children of israel
v. Do not be the first not to believe in it.
vi. Do not buy/sell Allah's signs with little price
vii. Fear Allah
viii.Do not mix truth with falsehood
ix. Do not conceal the truth while knowing it
x. Keep up Salat
xi. Give Purification(or in your translation :  contribute towards beterment)
xii. Ruku' with the ones who Ruku'

Here we can see that all of the instructions to Bani israel is seperated with a wa(and), and im reluctant to say that all of the instructions given was actually one instruction and devided into different attributes. The context clearly mention different instructions to the children of Israel which is saperated by wa(and).

Also in your reply, you translated "wa atu' az-zakata", to "and contribute towards beterment" --> do you have any threads or article that explain your understanding on Zakat till you can come to this translation?

Point #1:  Humility is a mental thing and it is difficult to physically see when someone else is being humble in their hearts, so when we are being told to kneel/be humble with those who kneel/are humble, how can we do that if we cannot clearly tell when others are being humble ? Thus it is more likely that it is referring to a physical act also, especially in context of salat, and most likely is referring to a group physical activity, of course accompanied with mental humility.

Agreed that Humility is difficult to see physically, however God's instruction is to ruku' with the ones that ruku'. If we render ruku' to Humility, if we are instructed to be humble with the ones that humble, we just have to be humble our selves, because we know that they are humble ppl out there, we just have to join them in humility to obey God's message.

Point #2:  If salat and ruku are referring to two different things in 2:34 then do you mean to say there is no humility in salat Huh? So according to your point of view, one should be able to uphold salat without any humility !!

My current understanding is: One of the mechanics of Salat is to call upon God, as explained in 17:110, One of the ethics in calling upon God is to call in Humility(translated from tadarru'an) as explained in 7:55.

As you also pointed out, according to 48:29, PHYSICAL "RUKU" AND "SUJUD" ARE POSSIBLE !! and according to my above explanation, "ruku" can be linked to "salat" per 2:43, which is most likely physical as per point #1 above.

I have no problem with physical sujud as this have been proven that physical sujud is one of the salat mechanics; especially in 4:102.

48:29 shows that we can see some people ruku' and sujud in searching favours and acceptance from God. How can we link this with salat?

In my understanding the "ruku" during salat is both physical and mental, because a physical "ruku" without a simultaneous mental humility will be meaningless and will not be "ruku".

My current understanding is "ruku'" can be traslated to physical and mentally. However not sure how to link this understanding to Salat.

Physical ruku' is not bowing. According to the Qur'aan one is to go down and sit on the knees. See 38:24:

"? he fell "raki'an"?" (38:24)

One cannot fall into bowing, however, one can fall to one's knees. Therefore the sectarian bowing position has no support in the Qur'aan.

Of course, "ruku'" also means humility, so we should be humble in our salat, which is also "ruku'".

Perhaps that is what is being referred to in 77:48 that when it will be said to them "irka3oo", they will bow instead of kneel, thus they do not know, because they have been following false hadeeth. Now anyone can bow humbly too but still that will be false. It cannot be referring to humility alone because how will one demonstrate humility when ordered to "irka3oo" ? Imagine you are sanding in front of me and I order you to "irkaoo", how will you fulfill that order Huh?

Of course the kneeling has to be accompanied by mental humility too, and then it will show the humility of the mind, heart and body in harmony.

What do you think ?

Since your definition ruku' = kneeling have no foundation in the dictionary that i have in my posession. I have limited resource to validate this. However ill keep this in my KIV list.

Then if you translate ruku' = kneeling; i would guesed that you would translate jissiya in 19:68 as bowing? Its hard for me to imagine to walk around hell bowing(hard to walk bowing) however it is easier relatively to walk kneeling. Tell me what you think about this.

[loli]

Salam.

Back to the topic of Ruku' and Salat Connection;

Can brothers and sisters of FM voice out your opinions on these two verses.

2:125 And when We put The House (as) a reward/replacement/compensation to the people, and (a) safety/security, and they took from Abraham's place a prayer place , and We entrusted/recommended to Abraham and Ishmael: "That purify/clean/wash (B) My House for the circlers/walkers around , and the devoting/dedicating , and the bowing , the prostrating ."

22:26 And when We established/assigned to Abraham the House/Home's place/position , that do not share/make partners with Me (in) a thing, and purify/clean My House/Home to the circlers/walkers around,and the standing/keeping up , and the bowing , and the prostrating.

is the bowing stated in this verses is physical or mental i.e humility? 

salam

[tanveermd]

Peace loli,

I will reply to the longer post later but just wanted to reply to the following quickly:

2:125 And when We put The House (as) a reward/replacement/compensation to the people, and (a) safety/security, and they took from Abraham's place a prayer place , and We entrusted/recommended to Abraham and Ishmael: "That purify/clean/wash (B) My House for the circlers/walkers around , and the devoting/dedicating , and the bowing , the prostrating ."

22:26 And when We established/assigned to Abraham the House/Home's place/position , that do not share/make partners with Me (in) a thing, and purify/clean My House/Home to the circlers/walkers around,and the standing/keeping up , and the bowing , and the prostrating.

is the bowing stated in this verses is physical or mental i.e humility?

In my understanding, "rukka3oo" in these verses should be translated as the humble (mental). Please also note that there is no "wa" between "rukka3oo" and "alsujood" in these verses.

Thus in my understanding, these verses should be translated as follows:

2:125 And We have made the house a reward/replacement/compensation/model to the people, and safety/security, and they took from Ibraheem's station/stance a place of salat/learning connection, and We entrusted/recommended to Ibraheem and Ismaeel: "That purify/clean My house for the visitors/passers by, and the devoted/remaining, and the humbly submitting/hearing and obeying."

22:26 And We established/assigned to Ibraheem the house's place/location, that do not partner with Me a thing, and purify/clean My house to the visitors/passers by, and the devoted/remaining, and the humbly submitting/hearing and obeying.

"Rukka3oo alsujood" in the above verses can also be translated as "the submissive humble".

[tanveermd]

Peace loli,

Thanks for raising some important points.

from Muhammad & Samira
2:40 You Israel's sons and daughters , remember My blessing , which I blessed on you, and fulfill/complete with My promise/contract , I fulfill/complete with your promise/contract , and (only) Me so be terrified/monkish of Me .
2:41 And believe with what I descended, confirming to what (is) with you, and do not be (the) first disbeliever with it, and do not buy/volunteer with My verses/evidences a small/little price, and (only) Me, so fear and obey Me.
2:42 And do not confuse/mix/cover the correct/truth with the falsehood, and you hide/conceal the correct/truth and you are knowing.
2:43 And keep up/take care of the prayers and give/bring the charity/purification and bow with the bowing.

Here we can see there is a list of instructions that is commanded to the children of Israel
Children of israel is commended to
i. Remember Allah's blessing
ii.Fulfill Allah's promise
iii. Be terrified of Allah
iv. Belive what Allah have decended confirming what is with the children of israel
v. Do not be the first not to believe in it.
vi. Do not buy/sell Allah's signs with little price
vii. Fear Allah
viii.Do not mix truth with falsehood
ix. Do not conceal the truth while knowing it
x. Keep up Salat
xi. Give Purification(or in your translation :  contribute towards beterment)
xii. Ruku' with the ones who Ruku'

Here we can see that all of the instructions to Bani israel is seperated with a wa(and), and im reluctant to say that all of the instructions given was actually one instruction and devided into different attributes. The context clearly mention different instructions to the children of Israel which is saperated by wa(and).

Let us break down the relevant verses:

2:40-43

You Israel's children,

A. remember My blessing which I blessed on you, and

B. fulfill/complete your promise/contract with me, I fulfill/complete My promise/contract with you, and

1. revere me alone, and

2. believe with what I descended, confirming to what with you, and do not be first disbeliever with it, and

3. do not buy/volunteer with My verses/evidences a small/little price, and

4. be aware/forethoughtful of me, and

5. do not confuse/mix/cover the correct/truth with the falsehood, and you hide/conceal the correct/truth and you are knowing, and

6. uphold the salat/learning connection and bring forth purification/goodness/righteousness/betterment and humbly kneel with the humbly kneeling

Thus The God is asking the children of Israel to remember His blessings and to fulfil their pledges to Him, and then He outlines the various pledges to be fulfilled.

I have grouped those parts of the verses together where "wa" is explaining the same thing or giving attributes of the same thing, according to context, and I have highlighted such "wa".

As you can see that there are several "wa" in these verses that are linking the same things instead of separating different things; also 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 listing the various pledges are explanation of B, linked by the blue "wa". Thus your conclusion about those "wa" is not correct, especially the red "wa". The green "wa" are the ones in question, and in my understanding they link attributes of the same thing i.e. salat, in this context.

Agreed that Humility is difficult to see physically, however God's instruction is to ruku' with the ones that ruku'. If we render ruku' to Humility, if we are instructed to be humble with the ones that humble, we just have to be humble our selves, because we know that they are humble ppl out there, we just have to join them in humility to obey God's message.

How do you "ruku" WITH those who "ruku" ?? The "with" implies observing/acknowledging the "ruku" of others in my opinion, thus implying a physical + mental "ruku" and not a mental "ruku" alone. The "with" implies a group activity and as mental humility is difficult to observe/acknowledge, the only way one can "ruku" WITH those who "ruku" is if it is physical also.

If what you are saying is correct then there was no need to say "ma3a"/with "alraki3een", and only "irka3oo"/be humble would have been enough, or alternatively it could have been "irka3oo mithl alraki3een"/be humble like those who are humble. Thus it should have been:

"uphold the salat and bring forth the zakat and "irka3oo"/be humble"

and as the commandment is to all children of Israel, "be humble" alone would imply being humble like others.

My current understanding is: One of the mechanics of Salat is to call upon God, as explained in 17:110, One of the ethics in calling upon God is to call in Humility(translated from tadarru'an) as explained in 7:55.

7:55 does not mention salat and is about "dua" in general. In salat we are asked to use a moderate tone and thus the "dua" in it will not be secret as implied by 7:55. In my opinion, 2:43 talks about the humility/"ruku" specific to salat.

I have no problem with physical sujud as this have been proven that physical sujud is one of the salat mechanics; especially in 4:102.

48:29 shows that we can see some people ruku' and sujud in searching favours and acceptance from God. How can we link this with salat?

In 48:29 there is no "wa" between "rukka3an" and "sujjadan", so why are you separating those two by putting an "and" in between ? In my understanding, it should be translated as "being humble submissively/obediently", or "humbly submitting", either way it talks about a physical action and if "sujud" is linked to salat by 4:102, then the physical "rukka3an" component of "rukka3an sujjadan" would be part of salat too. Once again, there is no "wa" between "rukka3an" and "sujjadan" in 48:29.

Since your definition ruku' = kneeling have no foundation in the dictionary that i have in my posession. I have limited resource to validate this. However ill keep this in my KIV list.

According to Lane Lexicon, "ruku" is not just "bowing" but also lowering one's head/falling upon one's face/being humble, so why are you saying it is "bowing", why not "falling upon one's face" ? and in 48:29 "rukka3an sujjadan" could mean falling on their faces submissively or lowering their heads submissively !

There is one place in Lane Lexicon where it talks about "knees touching the ground" in the definition of "raake3" as follows:



From the above, we can see that "ruku" can also be "lowering ones head with knees touching the ground" or "kneeling with lowered head". The reason I prefer that meaning to "bowing" or just "lowering head" or just "falling upon face" is because in 38:24, David "fell raaki3an", and one cannot fall bowing or fall lowering head or fall falling upon face (there would be a double fall), but one can fall kneeling with lowered head.

Then if you translate ruku' = kneeling; i would guesed that you would translate jissiya in 19:68 as bowing? Its hard for me to imagine to walk around hell bowing(hard to walk bowing) however it is easier relatively to walk kneeling. Tell me what you think about this.

According to Lane Lexicon, "jissiya" can also mean company/congregation and that meaning fits in 19:68. It doesn't say "walk" in that verse; "jissiya" can mean "sit on knees" or "company/congregation", and not "walk on knees". Nevertheless, it makes no sense for people to be on their knees in hell or EVERY nation sitting on their knees when they are called (see 45:28); that would be nonsensical !!

In my opinion the relevant verses should be translated as follows:

45:28 And you will see every nation congregated. Every nation will be called to its record. "Today, you be recompensed for everything you have done."

19:68 By your Lord, We will gather them and the devils, then We will place them around Hell congregated (in a group/all together).

19:72 Then We will save those who were righteous, and We leave the wicked in it congregated (in a group/all together).

Also in your reply, you translated "wa atu' az-zakata", to "and contribute towards beterment" --> do you have any threads or article that explain your understanding on Zakat till you can come to this translation?

I took that translation from the FM translation. I looked up "zakat" in Lane Lexicon where the various meanings given are purification/goodness/righteousness and "azkaa" can mean "better" also, thus "zakat" meaning betterment. In one place "zakat" was also given the meaning of "religious service".

Thus "atu' az-zakata" can be translated as "bring forth/contribute towards purification/goodness/righteousness/betterment" and all these meanings can be linked to salat in the context of 2:43, especially "righteousness".

Hope that was helpful. Let me know what you think please.

[tanveermd]

Peace loli,

Another verse that I overlooked, that connects "ruku3" with "salat" is 5:55

5:55 For your supporter/ally is God and His messenger and the believers who honor the salat, and bring forth purification/righteousness and kneel humbly (raaki3oon).

Here "wahum raaki3oon" can also be translated as "while they are kneeling humbly", thus linking it with both salat and zakat.

[loli]

Salam Tanveer.

Thanx for your posts..i do learn from you and your understanding of the Quran. And sorry for the late reply, was occupied by earthly matters..Just some points to note.

1. Your linking of salat and Ruku' is solely based on "zakat" is a part of salat. If zakat is not part of salat then your argument is void.
2. "ruku" WITH those who "ruku" can also means "be humble with the ones who humble" which indicates that there are humble people out there. Thus we must be humble our selves. Nothing to do with "observing/acknowledging the "ruku" of others" in this case.
3. 48:29 --> rukka'an sujuddan: Thanx for notifying me. My mistake. Will consider your thoughts.
4. Lane's Definition :"knees touching the ground" --> To me the whole context in lane points towards prostration, i.e knees definitely will touch the ground while you prostrate.
5. Lane definition "jissiya" can also mean company/congregation:
19:68: Jisiyya
19:72: Jisiyya
45:28: Jasiyatan

Based on Lane; the exact word that can be translated to company/congregation is ﺟُﺛًﺎ(juthan) or ﺟُﺛًﺊ which didn't appear in the Quran.
On the last paragraph of Lane's definition, he suggested the definition of company/congregation for the word that appear in chapter forty five. which is 45:28, Just to note, Lane's reference for this is both "exposition of the kuran" by Jelaleyn and El-Badawee. Exposition of the kuran books are only tafsirs/opinions of the writer hence not the literal meaning of the word. Therefore i am a little bit reluctant to accept your ideas.

6. On 2:125 and 22:26, your ideas is being digested and is being considered. Thank you.


Do any others have any input or justification that can link Salat and Ruku', Please lay down your ideas in this thread so that we can discuss

Thanx
Salam

[tanveermd]

Wa alaikum alsalaam loli,

Thanx for your posts..i do learn from you and your understanding of the Quran. And sorry for the late reply, was occupied by earthly matters..Just some points to note.

Likewise. Thanks for sharing your understanding. I am learning from your understanding as well.

My current understanding of "ruku3" in salat is the sitting position on knees before the sujud. One would first stand and then go down and sit on the knees and then sujud, and that sitting on the knees right before sujud would be the "ruku3", provided it is also accompanied with mental humility. As far as the "bowing", I don't think it is part of salat. Of course it is impossible to perform sujud without sitting on the knees so even if your understanding is standing and then sujud in salat, we still have the same physical understanding !!

1. Your linking of salat and Ruku' is solely based on "zakat" is a part of salat. If zakat is not part of salat then your argument is void.

What is your understanding on this ? I think that salat also brings forth purification/righteousness so salat and zakat are linked.

Firstly, zakat/purification/righteousness has been mentioned right next to salat at least 26 times in al-qur'aan, so there has to be a link ! Other ways of bringing forth purification/righteousness are charity (sadaqat and infaaq).

Secondly, consider the following 3 verses:

2:129 "Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the Scripture and the wisdom, and purify them (yuzakkeehim). You are the Noble, the Wise."

2:151 As We have sent a messenger to you from amongst yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you (yuzakkeekum), and teach you the Scripture and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.

62:2 He is the One who sent to the Gentiles a messenger from among themselves, to recite to them His revelations, and to purify them (yuzakkeehim), and teach them the Scripture and the wisdom. And before this, they were clearly astray.

In all these verses, reciting the revelation, purification, and teaching the scripture all seem to be part of the same process and inter-related, and all 3 can be done during group salat. Reciting the revelation is definitely a part of salat. Thus it seems that zakat is also linked to salat and is a part of salat.

4. Lane's Definition :"knees touching the ground" --> To me the whole context in lane points towards prostration, i.e knees definitely will touch the ground while you prostrate.

As you saw above, my understanding of the physical ruku3 in salat is exactly what that Lane's definition is.

2. "ruku" WITH those who "ruku" can also means "be humble with the ones who humble" which indicates that there are humble people out there. Thus we must be humble our selves. Nothing to do with "observing/acknowledging the "ruku" of others" in this case.

If I am performing salat in a congregation, then after standing when I go down and sit on the knees in a humble manner to prepare for sujud along with all others, then I am being humble with the ones who humble, which fits "irka3oo ma3a alraki3een", doesn't it ? Of course, that is not the only time I can be humble with the ones who humble, it can happen outside salat too; congregation salat is just one of the times which would satisfy that qur'aanic order.

5. Lane definition "jissiya" can also mean company/congregation:
19:68: Jisiyya
19:72: Jisiyya
45:28: Jasiyatan

Based on Lane; the exact word that can be translated to company/congregation is ﺟُﺛًﺎ(juthan) or ﺟُﺛًﺊ which didn't appear in the Quran.
On the last paragraph of Lane's definition, he suggested the definition of company/congregation for the word that appear in chapter forty five. which is 45:28, Just to note, Lane's reference for this is both "exposition of the kuran" by Jelaleyn and El-Badawee. Exposition of the kuran books are only tafsirs/opinions of the writer hence not the literal meaning of the word. Therefore i am a little bit reluctant to accept your ideas.

Thank you for the info. While in 19:68 and 19:72 a physical sitting on knees for the people in hell seems plausible but does not seem to make any sense in the context. It also does not make any sense in 45:28 according to the context. Why would EVERY nation sit on their knees when they are called ? That would include the righteous too. Congregated makes more sense in all those verses according to the context.

I just checked Lane and found that the word meaning kneeling is of the form jiim-tha-wa (jathw and juthuw at the beginning of the definitions) and the word meaning congregation is of the form jiim-tha-ya or jiim-tha-alif (both are jathan). The relevant words used in al-qur'aan are of the form jiim-tha-ya, and not jiim-tha-wa, therefore I think they mean congregated rather than sitting on knees. The meaning "congregated" fits all the relevant verses, and makes sense also.

Lot of people on this forum do not believe that a physical ruku3 is part of salat, and they translate "ruku3" as a mental humility everywhere in al-qur'aan. Lot of people here also do not believe in a physical sujud during salat either, and they translate "sujud" during salat as mental submission only. I disagree with those interpretations and think that ruku and sujud are both part of salat and are both mental and physical in the context of salat. My understanding of the mental and physical ruku3 in salat as I explained above might look like a part of the physical sujud though, as I don't think that the bowing position has any support according to al-qur'aan. Others might say that a physical ruku3 is not part of salat and they might just have the standing position followed by the physical and mental sujud, but still that would coincide with my physical movements.

Regards and best wishes

[loli]

salam Tanveer.


Zakat(purification) is something that to be done..

23:4 And those who to the purification , they are making/doing.

While im concur with your understanding that salat do purifies.(35:18)

35:18 And no sinner/loader/burdener (F) (self) carries/bears/sins (F) another's sin/load/burden , and if she/it calls (a) burdened/loaded (F) (self) to (remove) her/its weight/load , nothing from it (will) be carried/lifted a thing, and even if it was/is (to) of relations , truly/indeed you warn/give notice (to) those who fear their Lord with the unseen/hidden and they kept up the prayers, and who purifies , so but he purifies to/for him self, and to God (is) the end/destination.

--> here 35:18 fearing God and keep up the salat purifies(tazakka)

there are other deeds that can purifie us.
example

92:18 Who gives/brings his property/possession/wealth (and) purifies/corrects (himself).

--> here ppl who give there wealth (to) purifies(tazakka) himself:

9:103 Take/receive from their properties/wealths charity, to purify/clean them mentally and physically , and to purify/correct/commend them with it, and pray/call (for) God's blessings on them, that your prayers (are) tranquillity/security for them, and God (is) hearing/listening, knowledgeable.

--> here wealth is taken from to purifies the person who give it.

Therefore Zakat in the sense of of the Quran is more than performing salat.

But when it is said "To give zakat/purification" it leans towards the act of giving; which concur with the 9:103 and 92:18. Therefore I conclude that zakat is a saperate act of devotion to God than Salat.

Please let me know what you think on this.

salam