Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba

[AhmedBahgat]

Salaam Ahmed

Good morning

Thank you for your Reply mate . I just have a couple of Questions for you If that is ok .

well, you have to understand that my attitude in my replies is not going to be charming, the reason is simply I?m accused of being, dumb, deaf and blind by those who are promoting this non sense, on te other had I didn?t really reject the concept on the fly, I actually studied all what they said and I was angry to see that most of their arguments either irrelevant, vein talk, ro non sensible, I have spent a lot of time looking at this subject before I even started to reply to it, indeed a few months back I was perused by BmmBmm to reply to it and I declined but promised him that he will see me coming back on it really hard, and that is what I?m doing now and for about 3 months regarding this subject

so if you don?t like my style, I?m sorry but it is motivated by anger against you rather an anger towards the silly and vein talk presented that you guys think is compelling evidences, hmmm, to be honest, I have never read ONE compelling evidences so far from any one who promote or follow this conjecture

1. Do you believe that Rasul-Allah Ahmad/Muhammad was born and Lived in Makkah ?

Of course, however a few years later he had to migrate to Yathrib as you know

If your answer to this question is affirmative , Then Ibrahim and Isma?l could never have been to Makkah ! as we can see in 34:44 below, "We had not given to them any Scriptures to study , nor did we send to them Before You any Warner . ( TM ).
Wa maa aatainaahum min Kutubiy yadrusuunahaa wa ma Arsalna ilaihim Qablika min Nadzir ".

You have to know that Ibrahim was only a Nabi, I can?t recall that he was ever called Rasool in the Quran, therefore Ibrahim was not really sent to any humans as a messenger from God, rather who was a prophet who should establish the foundation of submitting to Allah alone without associating any partners from him as well raise the foundation of His Bayt, therefore using 34:44 as an argument is not valid because 34:44 can be talking only to Quraish, I.e. Allah never sent a messenger nor a book to Quraish, not the whole Arabs as you trying to say, I also know that Ismail lived in another area after he left on his own, but I just can?t see how this should prove that the Kabba is a pagan God?

See how 34:44 said clearly :[size=20]? وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ قَبْلَكَ مِن نَّذِيرٍ?[/size]

See. ?Wa Ma ARSALNA ILAIHIM Qablak min Nazir?, can you see the capital words, which clealy means ?SENT TO THEM?, THEM is Quraish, and sent means NO MESSENGER WAS SENT TO THEM BEFORE MOHAMMAD, ie. they received no Messenger but possibly they had a prophet in the past, the bottom line 34:44 can never be considered a conclusive evidence that it was talking about all humanity

Now you need to answer this question, IS JERUSALEN an uncultivated valley?

2. In your Reply to my last Post you asked why "where in the Quran does it say That Prophets/Messengers must go to Makkah " . Now I am asking you : If those prophets/Messengers do not have to Perform Hajj to Kabba/ Makkah ,

I didn?t say they didn?t performed hajj, what I?m saying where is it that law that every messenger and  prophet sent by Allah on earth should do Hajj in a specific place and that place must be the same for all?

then should ordinary Muslim/Believers are asked to perform The Hajj to Kabba/Makkah .

why you are comparing us with them,? please don?t resort to FFI common fallacy which I called Tutty Fruity fallacy, it involves mix apples with mangos then treating the lot as either apples or mangos

we will never come near them and we will never be dealt with in this life as Allah dealt with them, now Allah ordered me to do Hajj and he never conditioned it that all prophets and messengers before should do it the same as us, indeed Allah ordered us to marry a max of 4 widows with orphans, while He allowed Mohammad to marry more than 4 with no orphans, i.e. any laws apply to an average human who received a messenger from Allah  do not have to apply to those messengers  at least before the law put in place, therefore the law of Hajj to Al bayt Al Haram was  told to us in the Quran and that is the starting point of that law, there might Hajj to other places before the verse was revealed, but that has to become obsolete when the order was revealed from the same and one God , i.e. where other prophets did their hajj before the verse was revealed carry no importance whatsoever, it will only be important to those willing to go astray

You also said in your last post That Allah has Created Other Religion , could you Please show me what is the Religion other than Islam that You said Allah Created

That is a silly request really, becayse the Quran clearly told us that Allah sent a religion to the Jews and a religion to the Nasaara, and sure they have different laws other than what is in the Quran, I agree that all religions sent by Allah agree on the basics, like one God, JD, Hell?paradise, but their ritulas was the same and they even have things that were haram to them and not to us and vica verse, therefore it is different teaching regarding our affairs in this life, they all the same after this life, the following verse clearly told us that the Jews and Nasarra have different Millah to Islam, :

And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.
[The Quran ; 2:120]

وَلَن تَرْضَى عَنكَ الْيَهُودُ وَلاَ النَّصَارَى حَتَّى تَتَّبِعَ مِلَّتَهُمْ قُلْ إِنَّ هُدَى اللّهِ هُوَ الْهُدَى وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعْتَ أَهْوَاءهُم بَعْدَ الَّذِي جَاءكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ مَا لَكَ مِنَ اللّهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلاَ نَصِيرٍ (120)


The following verses clearly tells us even the sequence in how they have been sent of these three religions:

43: But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command

44: It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
ications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

45: And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

46: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

47: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

48: And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed; 
[The Quran ; 5:43-48]

وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِن بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَمَا أُوْلَئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ (43)
إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُواْ لِلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُواْ مِن كِتَابِ اللّهِ وَكَانُواْ عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاء فَلاَ تَخْشَوُاْ النَّاسَ وَاخْشَوْنِ وَلاَ تَشْتَرُواْ بِآيَاتِي ثَمَنًا قَلِيلاً وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ (44)
وَكَتَبْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِيهَا أَنَّ النَّفْسَ بِالنَّفْسِ وَالْعَيْنَ بِالْعَيْنِ وَالأَنفَ بِالأَنفِ وَالأُذُنَ بِالأُذُنِ وَالسِّنَّ بِالسِّنِّ وَالْجُرُوحَ قِصَاصٌ فَمَن تَصَدَّقَ بِهِ فَهُوَ كَفَّارَةٌ لَّهُ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ (45)
وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَى آثَارِهِم بِعَيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ (46)
وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ (47)
وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَكِن لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَآ آتَاكُم فَاسْتَبِقُوا الخَيْرَاتِ إِلَى الله مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (48)

-> See:

-> Verse 43, ?when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command ?

-> Verse 44,  ?It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light.?

-> Verse 45, ?And We prescribed to them?

-> Verse 46, ?And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel[/b]

-> Verse 47, ?And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it;

-> Verse 48, ?And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth,?

What else I can say, clearly Allah is telling us the each of the above group has their own religion, their own book which should have their own sets of laws, there are similarities of course and that is how  each religion  should confirm what is before it, using these similarities, yet each gruoup has their own sets of rules that is called Religion

If the rules are the same in all religions then Allah would have just send all prophets with the same book,  but He did not as He told us in 5:34-48

Thank you mate . Wassalamu' alaa manittaba?l hudaa

almarh0m

Cheers

[AhmedBahgat]

Another tom and jerry argument that all prophets should have done hajj to the same spot

Noah was before Ibrahim and Ibrahim was the one who built the Bayt, therefore your silly argument that all prophet should have done Hajj to Al Bayat Al Haram (The Holy House) is nothing but dust in thin air and if it proves anything, it should prove a clear cut case of low IQ

Cheers

[tanveermd]

Peace all,

Al-qur'aan tells us that Abraham was ordered to purify the bayt (2:125, 22:26), and to raise the foundations FROM the bayt per 2:127 (not raise the foundations for the bayt which is a mistranslation as the arabic words are "qawa3id min albayt", i.e. foundations FROM the bayt, and not "qawa3id li albayt" meaning foundations for the bayt), and that the FIRST bayt was at Bakkah (3:96). Where does The God tell us that Abraham built the first bayt ? If one builds the bayt, one raises foundations for the bayt, or raises the bayt from the foundations, not raise foundations from the bayt. The maqam of Abraham being in the first bayt (3:97) does not mean he built it; it could have been in existence before him and then because he went there, his maqam was in it.

Another example of deception and inventing lies about The God by Ahmed perhaps ?

[almarh0m]

 Salaam Ahmed and Others

For a Native Arabic Speaker , you are you are amazingly Ignorant Ahmed ! I will not reply to any of your Verbose, Juvenile and Nonsensical Posts in the Future . Just look at at your Tom and Jerry Argument , Does it not Occur to you , That , We can Reasonably Deduce as Per 3:96 and 3:97 That Bakka or the First Bayt was established by Adam or People of his Generation ?

I think it's Time for you to do some Introspection, and learn to be more Humble ands acknowledging other People's Opinion. Or do you apply These Rules : 1. Ahmed the Expert in anything Arabic is always Right.
2. If Ahmed is Wrong, please see Rule Number One .

have a nice day matey and have another VB , Cheers

almarh0m

[warner]

Peace be with you


In 34:44 "natheer" is it warner or prophet or messenger ?


Please point me to any prior discussions on the differences of messenger and nabi.

[AhmedBahgat]

Peace be with you


In 34:44 "natheer" is it warner or prophet or messenger ?


Please point me to any prior discussions on the differences of messenger and nabi.

Hello bro

A Nazir can be considered a Messeeger because a Messneger must be sent to someone to deliver somethig to them, this is at least what I believe should diffrentiate between a prophet and a Messneger, there might be other differences but the one that stands out for me that Messengers are sent to others to deliver or say something to them

Salam

[tanveermd]

Peace warner,

Relevant links:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7916.0

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608.0

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10608.0

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12404.0

http://www.geocities.com/thewisekoran/mess.htm

[AhmedBahgat]

Salaam Ahmed and Others

For a Native Arabic Speaker , you are you are amazingly Ignorant Ahmed ! I will not reply to any of your Verbose, Juvenile and Nonsensical Posts in the Future . Just look at at your Tom and Jerry Argument , Does it not Occur to you , That , We can Reasonably Deduce as Per 3:96 and 3:97 That Bakka or the First Bayt was established by Adam or People of his Generation ?

I think it's Time for you to do some Introspection, and learn to be more Humble ands acknowledging other People's Opinion. Or do you apply These Rules : 1. Ahmed the Expert in anything Arabic is always Right.
2. If Ahmed is Wrong, please see Rule Number One .

have a nice day matey and have another VB , Cheers

almarh0m

Dismissed

[tanveermd]

Peace warner, all,

NO MESSENGER WAS SENT TO THEM BEFORE MOHAMMAD, ie. they received no Messenger but possibly they had a prophet in the past

34:44 can be talking only to Quraish, I.e. Allah never sent a messenger nor a book to Quraish, not the whole Arabs as you trying to say

?Wa Ma ARSALNA ILAIHIM Qablak min Nazir?, can you see the capital words, which clealy means ?SENT TO THEM?, THEM is Quraish

A Nazir can be considered a Messeeger because a Messneger must be sent to someone to deliver somethig to them, this is at least what I believe should diffrentiate between a prophet and a Messneger, there might be other differences but the one that stands out for me that Messengers are sent to others to deliver or say something to them

The following qur'aanic facts will YET AGAIN expose the above quoted deceptions of Ahmed by telling people partial truths and hiding facts and inventing lies about The God !

Prophets can also be messengers (7:157, 7:158, 9:61, 19:51, 19:54, 33:40, 33:53) but all messengers are not prophets.

Prophets are warners:

2:213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and warners, and He sent down with them the Scripture with the facts so that they may judge between the people in what they were disputing. But after receiving the clarity, the people disputed in it due to animosity between them. And God guided those who believed with His permission regarding what they disputed in of the truth. And God guides whoever He wishes to a straight path.

33:45 O prophet, We have sent you as a witness, and a bearer of good news, and a warner.

2:119 7:184 7:188 11:2 11:12 13:7 15:89 17:105 22:49 25:1 25:56 27:92 29:50 34:28 34:46 35:23 35:24 38:4 38:65 38:70 46:9 48:8 50:2 51:50 51:51 67:26

Messengers are warners:

4:165 Messengers who were bearers of good news and warners, so that there will be no excuse for the people with God after the messengers. God is Noble, Wise.
6:48 And We do not send the messengers except as bearers of good news and warners; whoever believes, and does good, then there is no fear for them nor will they grieve.

5:19 11:25 18:56 25:7 46:9 71:2

Qur'aan is a warner:

41:1 H.M.
41:2 A revelation from the Almighty, the Merciful.
41:3 A Scripture whose verses are detailed, a compilation in Arabic for a people who know.
41:4 A bearer of good news, and a warner. But most of them turn away; they do not hear.

Thus "warner" in the context of the following verses would apply to prophets, messengers, and scriptures and it follows that neither a prophet nor a messenger nor any scripture was sent before Muhammad to the people he was sent to:

28:46 And nor were you on the side of the mount when We called. But it is a mercy from your Lord, so that you may warn a PEOPLE who received no warner before you, perhaps they may take heed.
32:3 Or do they Say: "He fabricated it!" No, it is the truth from your Lord, so that you may warn a PEOPLE who never received a warner before you, in order that they may be guided.
34:44 We had not given to them any Scriptures to study, nor did We send to THEM before you any warner.

As everyone can clearly see that 28:46 and 32:3 mention that Muhammad was sent to PEOPLE who never received a warner before him, thus in 34:44 "them" refers to these PEOPLE and not just Quraish as Ahmed wants you to believe by deceiving you and inventing lies about The God (refer to his deceptions as quoted above).

Yet another deception and inventing lies about The God by Ahmed is as follows:

You have to know that Ibrahim was only a Nabi, I can?t recall that he was ever called Rasool in the Quran, therefore Ibrahim was not really sent to any humans as a messenger from God

9:70 Did the news not come to them of those before them, the people of Noah and 'Aad and Thamud. And the people of Abraham, and the dwellers of Median, and those overthrown. Their messengers came to them with clarity; it was not God who wronged them, but it was themselves that they wronged.

This verse clearly shows that Abraham was also a messenger !!

2:9 They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.

[AhmedBahgat]

Does the name Oben sound familiar