Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba

[ayman]

Peace Jafar,

Thank you for adding your comments to the discussion.

Masjid Al-Haram = The Restricted/Forbidden Mosque
Well since Titus destruction of the "Beyth Elohym" in Jerusalem.  (70 AD)
The Jews has called the Temple Mount area in Jerusalem as "Restricted/Forbidden Place".
And they believe that only a "Jewish Mossiach" will rebuild the temple... which then the place will not be "Forbidden" anymore..

I am afraid that manuscripts from eye witnesses from the era describe a different story.

The place that is called Temple Mount was used by the residents of Jerusalem as a garbage dump. It was not a "Restricted/Forbidden Place" and people casually went there to throw their garbage. According to the Roman and Jewish writings from the era, the Jews and the Mhagaryee (Muhajirin) who had formed an alliance against the Romans invaded Jerusalem during the reign of the second king of the Saracens (Umar I). When they captured Jersualem, the Romans were surprised to see them go to the place that was used as a garbage dump and clean it. They then proceded to build two shrines side by side. One for the Jews and one for the Muhajirin. The roman sources then tell us that a few decades later when the relationship between the Jews and the Saracens soured, the Saracens took over the Jewish shrine and the Jews established another shrine elsewhere.

The Jewish sources describe a similar event. For example, Rabbi Simon ben Yohai wrote the following in 680 CE:

"The second king who arose from Ishmael was a lover of Israel. He restored their breaches and the breaches of the Temple. He hewed Mount Moriah, made it level and built a Hishtahawaya there on the Temple rock, as it was said: "Your nest is set in the rock."

The second king of the Arabs (Umar I) was viewed favorably by Jews but certainly not as the Massiah.

Peace,

Ayman

[zeljko67]

Geographically, notice how the most crucial information is eliminated in Mecca's obstinate defender apologetic thesis. He mentions Iathrippa and then Macoraba but deliberetly neglects to mention that Ptolemy identified five more towns beween Iathrippa and Macoraba (he was going from north to south):

Peace Ayman,

Adding onto your refutuation of the claim that "Makoraba" is "Mecca" is:

1) the fact that Ptolemy places Makoraba only one degree to the south of lathrippa (equivelant to 58 miles south of lathrippa)-
(23 degrees lathrippa/22 degrees Makoraba-1 Ptolemic degree of latitude = 58 miles).
Mecca is 210 miles to the south of Medinah.

2) Ptolemy places the Interior Smyrnophoros region (myrrh producing region)immediately south of Makoraba(within 1 degree) which would correspond  to a "Myrrhless" Hejaz and Asir area if Mecca were Makoraba.

3) In Ptolemy's sixth map of Asia, Ptolemy places the "Minaei" one degree south of the Interior smyrnophoros region(hejaz/asir), thus in effect placing the Minaei only two degrees south of Makoraba, when in fact they were considered hundreds of miles to the south of Mecca(north and central yemen).

There are a few more problems with this placement.

a.)The nation of Minaei did not exist during the time of Ptolemy's writings-150ad-(the nation of Minaei came to an end in 100bc at which time they had amalgated with the sabaeans.)

b) During their existence, the Minaei were located within the Yemeni Myrrh region with one of their famous cities being Carna which itself existed north or outside of the actual Myrrh producing region and north of the Sabaean city of Ma'rib(land of the Makriba which btw was considered also to be north of the Myrhh producing region in yemen ).

Basically, it seems that ptolemy created two Myrrh producing areas(Interior-fake, and Exterior-actual).

One FAKE myrhh producing region in the Hejaz/Asir area to compensate for his outdated info regarding the Minaen Kingdom of Yemen whose Capital city was "Carna"(north of the Myrhh region),

And the second actual Myrrh producing region in Yemen, labelled by Ptolemy the "exterior Smyrnophoros regio", which was near the hadraumaut and was used by Ptolemy for his newer information regarding that part of the world.

In more words, Ptolemy made space in his Asir/Hejaz area for the outdated and readily available information regarding the kingdom of the Minaei (Just in case). Thus the reason we find Carna (Minean capital), Makoraba(Mar'ib, where the Kings were known as the Makriba) and the so called Interior Myrrh producing region, all erroneously placed within the Hejaz/Asir vicinity.

Peace.

[Nun de plume]

Peace Tanveer,

I did keep it respectful if you read what I wrote. I called you intelligent, and if a billion muslims infer the same about me, i.e. I am intelligent, then I will be honored 

No, you arrogantly called yourself intelligent inferring a billion people that don?t agree with you are morons.

[31:18-19] "You shall not treat the people with arrogance, nor shall you roam the earth proudly. GOD does not like the arrogant showoffs. "Walk humbly and lower your voice - the ugliest voice is the donkey's voice."

Entering God's deen is not just accepting islam, but implementing/instituting the hearing and obeying also 

Then please tell us how?

All at free-minds.org gather to pray and you are in charge.

Which way do we turn towards?

Not the one at Mecca, which I am 100 % sure 

Then where do we go for Hajj?

What do we do once we are there?

And any moron can see that if you (being one of the children of Adam) don't take the beautiful things from EVERY Mosque/Temple and thus don't visit EVERY Mosque/Temple in your lifetime to do that (as per your fallacious understanding), then you are disobeying 7:31 

Hopefully you see that since you seem to be intelligent !

Where did get ?from? in that verse?

Yā Banī 'Ādama Khudhū Zīnatakum `Inda Kulli Masjidin Wa Kulū Wa Ashrabū Wa Lā Tusrifū 'Innahu Lā Yuĥibbu Al-Musrifīna (Al-'A`rāf: 31).

7:31 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.

007.031
YUSUFALI: O Children of Adam! wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer: eat and drink: But waste not by excess, for Allah loveth not the wasters.
PICKTHAL: O Children of Adam! Look to your adornment at every place of worship, and eat and drink, but be not prodigal. Lo! He loveth not the prodigals.
SHAKIR: O children of Adam! attend to your embellishments at every time of prayer, and eat and drink and be not extravagant; surely He does not love the extravagant.

7:31 "O children of Adam, you shall be clean and dress nicely when you go to the masjid. And eat and drink moderately; Surely, He does not love the gluttons."


Peace Ayman,

This is like asking "why can winged elephants fly?" You are expected to answer "Because they have wings". The question forgets that there is no evidence of winged elephants in the same way that there is no evidence of a town named Mecca or a shrine called Al-Masjid Al-Haram prior to the mid 8th century CE. The real question is "why has this been going on for 1250 years and not 1400 years?"

No, it is a "reality" that millions of people have been doing Hajj to Mecca for over 1,000 years whereas winged flying elephants are only in your imagination.

For example, they will never answer how they can face "al-masjid al-haram" wherever they are (in bed, sitting in front of the computer, in the car, etc.). The passage in 2:142-150. clearly says "wherever" and doesn't say anything about only while praying.

wher?ev?er (hw?r-ĕv'ər, w?r-) 
adv.
1.   In or to whatever place: used red pencil wherever needed.

When did ?wherever? or at any location mean always or at all times?

They will never answer the empirically verifiable fact that if I walk into their mosque or visit them in their house and pray facing some random direction and not the same direction as everyone, they will certainly ask me "what made you turn away from the direction that you were on?". My answer will certainly be "to the god belongs the east and the west (the god is in all directions), he guides whom he wills to a straight path (the straight path is a non-physical direction)".

Impossible for anyone to ask you ?what made you turn away from the direction that you were on? because you had no direction to begin with!

We have 1750 Members on Free-minds.org and gather at ?our house? to pray?

You are in charge; towards which ?direction? do we turn to pray?

How do we choose a ?random? direction:

1.   Play spins the bottle
2.   Round robin 360 degrees
3.   Randomly pick a direction for the day

22:25-37 and other verses talk about Hajj ? where do we go?


The Quran provides clear guidance to those who ?read? it!

Peace

[abrar]

Peace and greetings,

If some people are not satisfied with physical mosque then nothing could be positively done because their thoughts are attracted to fearful idol hysteria. It is the faith, belief, conviction and way of thinking that evryone is accountable for and not stones, objects, directions, and physical necessities that a person uses to satisfy the materialistic requirements of this world. This world is no hallucination, philosophical realm or realm of some metaphor of faith but is a solid physical and materialistic existance. If the physical world is being harnessed and controlled for one's benefit then that does not mean that the person has started idolising these physical tools. Most of the hardwork and time is spend in earning a living than rememberance of the God which is a physical reality. spending one's time and efforts and prayers for food and water does not mean that one is idolising these physical neccesities but is just for physical convenience.
Now if some people have a confusion why the world is physical and not a metaphor and fear that anything could be unintentionally idolised if they do 'nt escape from physical realm then they might have an obsession about any place used for rememberance of the God. It is more of a psychological problem than idolising in reality.

[ayman]

Peace Nun de plume,

No, it is a "reality" that millions of people have been doing Hajj to Mecca for over 1,000 years whereas winged flying elephants are only in your imagination.

At least you now have realized that it is not 1400 years so now you are deliberatley being vague by saying "over 1000" years (it should be 1250 years if you want to be more precise).

It is not "reality" that "hajj" is the circus going on in Mecca. It is not reality that "hajj" is about spinning seven times around a stone cube and kissing and waving at some stones. This is "hajj" only in your imagination. It doesn't matter that millions of people imagine it with you.

The legitimacy of Mecca is based on the claim that people have been doing "hajj" there since the time of Ibrahim. So by acknowledging that "over 1,000 years" is all you can deliberately vaguely say without getting into trouble with the evidence, your beloved pagan shrines are already discredited. I really do not need to say more.

wher?ev?er (hw?r-ĕv'ər, w?r-) 
adv.
1.   In or to whatever place: used red pencil wherever needed.
When did ?wherever? or at any location mean always or at all times?

There is nothing in the passage that suggests "wherever needed". The passage simply says "wherever". You wish the passage said that but unfortunately for you, it didn't.

When did ?wherever? or at any location mean always or at all times?

After arguing that the passage says "wherever needed", you acknowledge the abvious that the passage only says "wherever". But then you make a strange argument that demonstrates that you are not thinking logically and patiently and are rushing to justify revering stones. Had you taken time to sincerely and patiently look for the truth, you would have seen that wherever implies at all times. Are you somewhere now? This somewhere is one of those "wherever". Are you somewhere else 1 minute from now. This somewhere else is one of those "wherever". So "wherever" implies all the time. This is an indisputable logical fact.

Impossible for anyone to ask you ?what made you turn away from the direction that you were on? because you had no direction to begin with!

But I did. Like you, I used to imagine to be facing Mecca. Try the scenario yourself. Go to the mosque that you usually go to or to anyone's house who you usually pray with and face a direction different than everyone else. You will certainly be asked that question and you will empirically see who is the foolish.

We have 1750 Members on Free-minds.org and gather at ?our house? to pray?
You are in charge; towards which ?direction? do we turn to pray?
How do we choose a ?random? direction:
1.   Play spins the bottle
2.   Round robin 360 degrees
3.   Randomly pick a direction for the day

Listen to yourself. You are so desperate to justify idolizing your shrine that you forget about the purpose and about what people naturally do in any gathering. If your purpose is to "pray" in a group and someone is leading the prayer then obviously the best direction is to face the leader. If you are praying individually then you can face whatever direction. It doesn't matter, the god is all around you.

22:25-37 and other verses talk about Hajj ? where do we go?
The Quran provides clear guidance to those who ?read? it!

No it doesn't. It provides guidance to the forethoughtful/"motaqin". If you read 22:26 and are from the forethoughtful/"motaqin" then you will see that the god clearly tells us where to go in no uncertain terms. Unfortunately, you will not see this if you continue to believe that the great reading is a theoretical book that speaks of theoretical Utopia and not of empirically verifiable truth. Haven't you done enough justifications already for revering your shrine? Isn't about time that you READ the truth in the great reading?

Do you READ in the great reading that you should SPIN SEVEN TIMES around a stone cube that has three pillars inside it? Do you READ in the great reading that you should kiss or wave at the Black Stone? Do you READ in the great reading that you should stone three pillars? Do you read in the great reading that you should be dressed in newborn-style wraps? Do you READ in the great reading that the water od Zamzam has the power to heal you? Do you READ in the great reading that the house of the god should have idols? No! What are you reading? or are you just justifying idolizing stones?

On the other hand, I read that the house of the god is for sanctuary and assembly of people and there are signs inside it from Ibrahim. How many people can you fit inside a room-sized stone cube? Is the stone cube a safe sanctuary? What signs from Ibrahim are inside it? If you really believe that the great reading provides clear guidance to those who read, then please read it and answer those questions. You will see that you will not be able to answer unless you are from the forethoughtful/"motaqin".

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace everyone,

If some people are not satisfied with physical mosque then nothing could be positively done because their thoughts are attracted to fearful idol hysteria. It is the faith, belief, conviction and way of thinking that evryone is accountable for and not stones, objects, directions, and physical necessities that a person uses to satisfy the materialistic requirements of this world. This world is no hallucination, philosophical realm or realm of some metaphor of faith but is a solid physical and materialistic existance. If the physical world is being harnessed and controlled for one's benefit then that does not mean that the person has started idolising these physical tools. Most of the hardwork and time is spend in earning a living than rememberance of the God which is a physical reality. spending one's time and efforts and prayers for food and water does not mean that one is idolising these physical neccesities but is just for physical convenience.
Now if some people have a confusion why the world is physical and not a metaphor and fear that anything could be unintentionally idolised if they do 'nt escape from physical realm then they might have an obsession about any place used for rememberance of the God. It is more of a psychological problem than idolising in reality.

If they really do not have an obsession about any place then they shouldn't be obsessed about facing the stone cube in Mecca. The above are just untrue vague fuzzy feely polemics that don't logically or specifically address any of the issues presented. This is so typical of those who seek to justify idolizing stones. Originally, they were hiding behind assumed "archeological" and "scriptural" evidence. When they are quizzed on specifics, and it is demonstrated that their so-called evidence is only in their imagination, their answers are conspicuously lacking.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Zeljko,

Adding onto your refutuation of the claim that "Makoraba" is "Mecca" is:
1) the fact that Ptolemy places Makoraba only one degree to the south of lathrippa (equivelant to 58 miles south of lathrippa)-
(23 degrees lathrippa/22 degrees Makoraba-1 Ptolemic degree of latitude = 58 miles).
Mecca is 210 miles to the south of Medinah.
2) Ptolemy places the Interior Smyrnophoros region (myrrh producing region)immediately south of Makoraba(within 1 degree) which would correspond  to a "Myrrhless" Hejaz and Asir area if Mecca were Makoraba.
3) In Ptolemy's sixth map of Asia, Ptolemy places the "Minaei" one degree south of the Interior smyrnophoros region(hejaz/asir), thus in effect placing the Minaei only two degrees south of Makoraba, when in fact they were considered hundreds of miles to the south of Mecca(north and central yemen).
There are a few more problems with this placement.
a.)The nation of Minaei did not exist during the time of Ptolemy's writings-150ad-(the nation of Minaei came to an end in 100bc at which time they had amalgated with the sabaeans.)
b) During their existence, the Minaei were located within the Yemeni Myrrh region with one of their famous cities being Carna which itself existed north or outside of the actual Myrrh producing region and north of the Sabaean city of Ma'rib(land of the Makriba which btw was considered also to be north of the Myrhh producing region in yemen ).
Basically, it seems that ptolemy created two Myrrh producing areas(Interior-fake, and Exterior-actual).
One FAKE myrhh producing region in the Hejaz/Asir area to compensate for his outdated info regarding the Minaen Kingdom of Yemen whose Capital city was "Carna"(north of the Myrhh region),
And the second actual Myrrh producing region in Yemen, labelled by Ptolemy the "exterior Smyrnophoros regio", which was near the hadraumaut and was used by Ptolemy for his newer information regarding that part of the world.
In more words, Ptolemy made space in his Asir/Hejaz area for the outdated and readily available information regarding the kingdom of the Minaei (Just in case). Thus the reason we find Carna (Minean capital), Makoraba(Mar'ib, where the Kings were known as the Makriba) and the so called Interior Myrrh producing region, all erroneously placed within the Hejaz/Asir vicinity.

Thank you for your valuable insight. This is very helpful.

Generally, I never put too much weight on Ptolemy's coordinates because they are not accurate or reliable. The only thing that we can kind of see is the relative position of towns in terms of sequence going for example from north to south.

Peace,

Ayman

[abrar]

Peace and greetings,

Chapter 3

إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيْتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنَّاسِ لَلَّذِي
بِبَكَّةَ مُبَارَكاً وَهُدًى لِّلْعَالَمِينَ

96. The first Sanctuary/House established for the people is the one in Bakk?a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.

Chapter 48

وَهُوَ الَّذِي كَفَّ أَيْدِيَهُمْ عَنكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ عَنْهُم بِبَطْنِ مَكَّةَ
مِن‏ بَعْدِ أَنْ أَظْفَرَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيراً

24. And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.


Anybody who has ever studied classical arabic lexicons and authentic etymological dictionaries would conclude that these are physical places in the context of the verses. However one with a strong philosophical and metaphorical bias would become blind in abstract realm. I challenge (in a similar manner of western scholars who challenged the most accomplished scholarly critic of the Quran Christoph Luxumburg to bring forth a comprehensive dictionary of arabic related ancient languages from which arabic evolved to support his baseless arguments against Quranic words. He failed so western scholars became hopeless of Luxumburg's work to challenge Quranic vocabulary in the most aggressive they intended) all those making philosophical and metaphorical Jargons out of these Quranic words to please present a hard evidence for refutation for physical existance of bekka and mecca in pre islamic era. Do not Just make baseless philosophical, metaphorical and ideological arguments to support your phony claims. Do not attempt to distort archaeological evidence by simple logic of your biased Judgements by making a fool out of well learned archaeologists who have spend a lifetime devoted to their work. Emptional archaeology gives rise to pseudoarchaeology.

It is a very common problem for those who interprete archaeology as passions to
prove anything by denying anything by any logic possible.

The following is a section of a topic in archaeology

Pseudoarchaeology (also called fantastic archaeology) is pseudoscientific archaeology, i.e. the interpretation of material remains and sites (which are not necessarily genuine) using methodology that is not part of the established scientific method. Archaeological theories, sites, site excavations and publications which do not conform to standard accepted archaeological methedology generally fall under the category of pseudoarchaeology.

Pseudoarchaeology can be practised intentionally or unintentionally. Archaeological frauds and hoaxes are considered intentional pseudoarchaeology. Genuine archaeological finds may be unintentionally converted to pseudoarchaeology through unscientific interpretation.

Pseudoarchaelogy is frequently motivated by nationalism or a desire to prove a particular religious, historical, political or anthropological theory. In many cases, an a priori conclusion is established, and fieldwork is undertaken explicitly to corroborate the theory in detail.

Practitioners of pseudoarchaeology often rail against academic archaeologists and established scientific methods, claiming conventional science has overlooked critical evidence.


Do not try to convince people by highly complex logical Jargonism.

[ayman]

Peace Abrar,

Chapter 48
وَهُوَ الَّذِي كَفَّ أَيْدِيَهُمْ عَنكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ عَنْهُم بِبَطْنِ مَكَّةَ
مِن‏ بَعْدِ أَنْ أَظْفَرَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيراً
24. And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.

Anybody who has ever studied classical arabic lexicons and authentic etymological dictionaries would conclude that these are physical places in the context of the verses.

This is just empty boasting without any substance. If you really ever studied classical arabic lexicons and authentic etymological dictionaries, then please translate Mecca for us. If you really ever studied classical arabic lexicons and authentic etymological dictionaries, then you would have known that it is not a meaningless word.

Peace,

Ayman

[AhmedBahgat]

Peace and greetings,

Chapter 3

إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيْتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنَّاسِ لَلَّذِي
بِبَكَّةَ مُبَارَكاً وَهُدًى لِّلْعَالَمِينَ

96. The first Sanctuary/House established for the people is the one in Bakk?a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.

Chapter 48

وَهُوَ الَّذِي كَفَّ أَيْدِيَهُمْ عَنكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ عَنْهُم بِبَطْنِ مَكَّةَ
مِن‏ بَعْدِ أَنْ أَظْفَرَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيراً

24. And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.


Anybody who has ever studied classical arabic lexicons and authentic etymological dictionaries would conclude that these are physical places in the context of the verses. However one with a strong philosophical and metaphorical bias would become blind in abstract realm. I challenge (in a similar manner of western scholars who challenged the most accomplished scholarly critic of the Quran Christoph Luxumburg to bring forth a comprehensive dictionary of arabic related ancient languages from which arabic evolved to support his baseless arguments against Quranic words. He failed so western scholars became hopeless of Luxumburg's work to challenge Quranic vocabulary in the most aggressive they intended) all those making philosophical and metaphorical Jargons out of these Quranic words to please present a hard evidence for refutation for physical existance of bekka and mecca in pre islamic era. Do not Just make baseless philosophical, metaphorical and ideological arguments to support your phony claims. Do not attempt to distort archaeological evidence by simple logic of your biased Judgements by making a fool out of well learned archaeologists who have spend a lifetime devoted to their work. Emptional archaeology gives rise to pseudoarchaeology.

It is a very common problem for those who interprete archaeology as passions to
prove anything by denying anything by any logic possible.

The following is a section of a topic in archaeology

Pseudoarchaeology (also called fantastic archaeology) is pseudoscientific archaeology, i.e. the interpretation of material remains and sites (which are not necessarily genuine) using methodology that is not part of the established scientific method. Archaeological theories, sites, site excavations and publications which do not conform to standard accepted archaeological methedology generally fall under the category of pseudoarchaeology.

Pseudoarchaeology can be practised intentionally or unintentionally. Archaeological frauds and hoaxes are considered intentional pseudoarchaeology. Genuine archaeological finds may be unintentionally converted to pseudoarchaeology through unscientific interpretation.

Pseudoarchaelogy is frequently motivated by nationalism or a desire to prove a particular religious, historical, political or anthropological theory. In many cases, an a priori conclusion is established, and fieldwork is undertaken explicitly to corroborate the theory in detail.

Practitioners of pseudoarchaeology often rail against academic archaeologists and established scientific methods, claiming conventional science has overlooked critical evidence.


Do not try to convince people by highly complex logical Jargonism.

Thanks bro

Be Batn Mecca, oputs all these ignornat claims to shame,

one letter "Be" refuted all their non sense

Game is over bro

Salam