Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba

[Lobster]

and have you read Ayman's articles. He explains this very well.

[Nun de plume]

2:144. Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona

2:144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

2:191. Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum waakhrijoohum min haythu akhrajookum waalfitnatu ashaddu mina alqatli wala tuqatiloohum AAinda almasjidi alharami hatta yuqatilookum feehi fa-in qatalookum faoqtuloohum kathalika jazao alkafireena

2:191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.

A physical place!

[thegod]

nun de plume wrote:
2:144. Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona

2:144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

2:191. Waoqtuloohum haythu thaqiftumoohum waakhrijoohum min haythu akhrajookum waalfitnatu ashaddu mina alqatli wala tuqatiloohum AAinda almasjidi alharami hatta yuqatilookum feehi fa-in qatalookum faoqtuloohum kathalika jazao alkafireena

2:191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.

A physical place!

# nice work...pure and pristine...from the book of god! :-)

[Damon]

Salaam all,

Something else to read concerning this topic is Mekka is NOT Bakka by Muhammad Ahmed ( he also translated the quran with his daughter Samira).

I think it is well worth the read.

Salaam,
Damon.

[thegod]

damon wrote:
Something else to read concerning this topic is Mekka is NOT Bakka by Muhammad Ahmed ( he also translated the quran with his daughter Samira).

# i think phoenix1 is more concerned about the logic behind facing in a particular direction, rather than mecca/bakka issue! :-)

# however...i read it...a few years back!

...there is another 1 on the web...some site by some gaznavi...dont remember the exact name...but dont think he is a muslim! :-)

[Lobster]

http://free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm

http://free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm

these are Ayman's articles I was referring to. But, as thegod said, I'm more interested in the logical aspect of it.

the fact is, and I have verified this, that turning toward an object 1000s of miles away does not help me do anything. And my attitude or personality don't change when I move from home to some temple. It's always the same. So the conclusion is that directions or locations don't matter.
This is the logical and scientific conclusion. If the quran conforms to logic and science, then the quran should agree with it.
anyone have an argument against this?

[thegod]

nun de plume wrote:
2:144. Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-i falanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu ma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheena ootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu min rabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma yaAAmaloona

...

2:191 And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers.

A physical place!

# the usage of the word in the verses does establish that it is a physical place...

...and "almasjidalharam" is an appelation given to the specific mosque, in the direction of which, v are required to face! :-)

[thegod]

phoenix1 wrote:
the fact is, and I have verified this, that turning toward an object 1000s of miles away does not help me do anything. And my attitude or personality don't change when I move from home to some temple. It's always the same. So the conclusion is that directions or locations don't matter.
This is the logical and scientific conclusion. If the quran conforms to logic and science, then the quran should agree with it.
anyone have an argument against this?

# to be honest i myself dont understand much! :-)

...i mean i dont see why god created us...and i am being honest..i dont see the logic behind it! :-)

[IronSky]

Peace to all,


The god, even if you dont have all the answers and you dont understand why God created us and cant see the logic of it, you cant deny that he created you can you, do you deny that you are even here on earth, if you cant deny your creation then maybe you should just accept that you are here for something, maybe we will never know why God created us but he did, and in the end only he knows, not even the angels knew why remember,  God says to them I know something you dont know, so if even the angels who were witness to creation doesnt know why then I dont think we can know why, maybe you dont see whats logical about it but your trying to figure out why God created everything but your using your creted brain to figure it out..

As far as turning towards mecca or the kabba,  I do it as best I can, i dont think its clearly figured out what and where we are to turn but until it is I see nothing wrong with doing it,  i would rather err on the side of caution.

Kurt

[Lobster]

# to be honest i myself dont understand much! :-)

...i mean i dont see why god created us...and i am being honest..i dont see the logic behind it! :-)

peace thegod,

God created us to serve It. That is our purpose. It is for our own good to serve God. So we do it. That is the logic behind it.
I have given you a good argument against facing a black pagan cube while praying, but all you can do is give me the above which has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
And just because we don't know some answers doesn't mean we just believe whatever someone tells us.
You don't what the logic behind our creation is, so why don't you just believe that there's a blue cat sitting on your head. I can't believe how people can show such blalant disregard for 17:36 to support their "faith."
God has given you your head for a reason. Use it (not literally).