Criticism of Mecca and Kaaba

[Lobster]

peace
(this thread has been created because a certain someone said we shouldn't criticize Mecca and the Kaaba)
I only want to give my thoughts on this, and I just want to see the logical defence of Mecca and kaaba.
Ayman presented an argument against the "holyness" of the city of Mecca and I found it very convincing, but that's not what this post is about.

First of all, we don't need face some physical place to serve God. And we don't need to "show" our "love" (how does one love God anyway?) for God by facing Mecca.
And if you think that Mecca is just a symbol for our "unity" then that makes no sense either.
Physical structures mean nothing, piety is not to face ourselves to the east or the west, then why do we need physical places and structures?
I'll say more later. Please offer your thoughts.

[mr. humble]

sir waleed, assalamualaikum,

sir waleed,would you like to quote the direct verse from the quran which says "piety is not....facing east or west" just for verification.

arnoldyasin told me in one of my personal messages that one does not need to face mecca to complete/observe salat. i want more verification then i will face mecca and do salat

peace, rifat

[abrar]

Peace andd greetings,

I have read a verse in Quran which says that You shall find the face of the God in every direction because to Him belogs easts and wests. Qibla towards sacred temple has been prescribed by the God so there should be no argument about it. However it has become controversial in the light of archaeological evidence whether Kaaba in Mecca or Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem is the real Qibla.

Please read the following article by brother Layth which illustrates the controversy.



http://www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/hajj.htm

[Lobster]

peace Abrar, you should read Ayman's article "How did it come to this."
Anyway, I don't think the qibla is toward any physical structure, but a mental state. Don't you think it is contradictory if the quran says that God is everywhere and then says "face this direction!"
I also recommend reading Ayman's article "what's in a name." good read.

Anyway, I'm not as concerned about what the quran says as much I want to see what logic says about a holy city and structure. Whether the "house of god" is in mecca, jeruselum, or ulan bator, the idea of a central city doesn't hold much water, IMO.

[AspeRin]

peace everyone

for me it seems obvious,that facing Kaaba on salat is not an innovation.
i was kept from generation to generation.
in quran says,that some non believers started to make fun of muslims because they changed the qibla the opposite way...jerusalem and makkah are in both opposite sides of medina.so they changed from one to another.the first had to be the dome of rock,because makkah was a temple full of many idols at the beginning.
that believers dont follow phony ahadith doesnt mean we have do the total opposite of those who believe in them...just a thought,but its always nice to recheck din stuff for ourselves.

peace 

[Magi]

peace

anyone who are symbol litterate will tell you that the whole area around the kaba and the kaba itself is a hodgepodge of sexual symbolism and astro theological ideas and concepts. There aint nothing holy about Mecca, there aint nothing holy in Rome, and there sure as hell is nothing holy about Jerusalem. Yeah the stories...they are full of holes. So it would be the holey Mecca.

[thegod]

asperin wrote:
for me it seems obvious,that facing Kaaba on salat is not an innovation.

i was kept from generation to generation.

2:149 And from where you got out so turn your face towards the Mosque the Forbidden/Sacred , and that it is the truth (E) from your Lord, and that God (is) not with ignoring/disregarding about what you are making/doing .


in quran says,that some non believers started to make fun of muslims because they changed the qibla the opposite way...jerusalem and makkah are in both opposite sides of medina.so they changed from one to another.the first had to be the dome of rock,because makkah was a temple full of many idols at the beginning.

# have the disbelievers ever acted different? :-)

that believers dont follow phony ahadith doesnt mean we have do the total opposite of those who believe in them...just a thought,but its always nice to recheck din stuff for ourselves.


# right on...v believe in the quran and what it says..

...wa-innahu lalhaqqu min rabbika wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma taAAmaloona! :-)

# peace! :-)

[Dion]

Kaba was build and made pilgrimage place during Abraham time.
Now, non of the scriptures or hadiths have any record of God's Messengers (Moses, David, Jesus, Solomon...) ever done the pilgrimage to Mecca.

If God's messengers weren't obliged by the "holy  city" and Kaaba why should we be??? And they are best example for us.

Any lawyer will get you of the hook from this aligation of criticising Mecca and Kaaba.

[abrar]

Peace and greetings,

Dear Phoenix,

Yes I agree with you that salat is a state of mind in which we glorify and praise and thank the God in submission and humbleness. When we demand something from God it becomes Dua or prayer but when we glorify, praise and thank the God it becomes salat. Dua/prayer according to Quran is calling on God for some need. Salat according to Quran is praising God by Glorification and thanking. However the arabic word "Masjid" which means a place of prostration or temple is a physical structure. It is not mental imagination of somekind of feeling or else the word "Masjid" would be a mythical and imaginary place of praising God which has nothing to do with the spiritual satisfaction one gets while praising God. Such imagery has no meaning to define the overall state of mind while performing salat which is independent of any imaginary place of prostration. Place of prostration is where you devote your words of praise for the God according to Quranic words for praising the God. The physical place has to be in public for universality of the message of the God for believers so it is a physical place where you praise the God in any civilized position(not by physical bowing and kneeling) by repeating any words for praise according to Quranic words. salat can be performed at home as well. But "Masjid" or place of prostration or temple is a public sanctuary devoted for praising the God in public. All entrances of the temples/Mosques has to be in accordance with a central temple called the sacred temple/Mosque to symbolise God's House which is  for the common family of believers around the world. So it is world publicity. Physical structure is just made up of stones and in no way the stones play any role in symbolising or signifying the Praise of the God, they are just physical places where people gather to collectively praise the God as a society. Do not tell me that the ink with which the Quran is written is somehow sacred. It is in fact human act of writing the Quran for convenience. The meaning displayed by the ink used in writing the Quran is sacred.

The God is the Lord of the two easts and the Lord of the two wests, so His presence is everywhere. However You cannot reject the God's command of Qibla towards Sacred mosque by saying that it is not piety to turn your face towards the east or west but it is piety to believe In the God, so Qibla is from Quran and it is the word of the God. You do not choose a Qibla by imagination but by the commands of the God given in Quran. Would it not have been simple for the God to illustrate that Qibla and mosques are imaginary. We live in a 3D world and have 360 degrees angle around us so how can you escape directions by imagination of your mind and pretend that you are facing every direction of 360 degrees. Remember the God says that no vision can grasp/sorround/comprehend Him but He surrounds every vision from all sides and directions. You cannot pinpoint the God's direction either by physical or mental means.

Chapter 17 verse 60

?Your Lord has encompassed the people.?

Chapter 6 verse 103

"The eyesight cannot reach Him, yet He can reach all eyesight; and He is the Subtle, the Expert.'

Chapter 2 verse 115

"And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God?s presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable." 

Chapter 2 verse 114.

'And who are more wicked than those who boycott God?s temples; so that His name not be mentioned in them; and they seek their destruction? They will not be able to enter them except in fear; they will have humiliation in this world and in the Hereafter a painful retribution. "


Chapter 22 verse 40

"The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said: ?Our Lord is God!? And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and affirmations, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble."


After reading the meanings of Mosque according to context of verses It does not seem to be mere state of mind. State of mind is obviously spiritual satisfaction whenever a believer is praising the God with humbleness so too many metaphorical explanations for everything is counterproductive.

[Lobster]

Yes I agree with you that salat is a state of mind in which we glorify and praise and thank the God in submission and humbleness. When we demand something from God it becomes Dua or prayer but when we glorify, praise and thank the God it becomes salat. Dua/prayer according to Quran is calling on God for some need. Salat according to Quran is praising God by Glorification and thanking.

peace Abrar,
I don't believe that the salat is a mental state of mind. I believe it is a rather physical action to bring us closer to God.
And salat never means glorifying or praising or thanking God (I don't think there is any verse that says it is). salat is a way to make us better servants of God. We do that by changing our suconscious.

However the arabic word "Masjid" which means a place of prostration or temple is a physical structure. It is not mental imagination of somekind of feeling or else the word "Masjid" would be a mythical and imaginary place of praising God which has nothing to do with the spiritual satisfaction one gets while praising God.

Spiritual satisfaction? you mean we observe salat and dua to feel good? I disagree.
Masjid being a physical place makes no sense. I know that I can perform salat wherever I am.
And masjid being a non physical place doesn't make it meaningless. In fact, a physical place is what is meaningless. Because we can perform our actions anywhere and anytime. We don't need a special place (with magical powers?) to do it. We don't need temples. And we certainly don't need to face those temples at any time in our lives.
Salat is done not for spiritual satisfaction, but for improving our behavior and getting closer to God.

he God is the Lord of the two easts and the Lord of the two wests, so His presence is everywhere. However You cannot reject the God's command of Qibla towards Sacred mosque by saying that it is not piety to turn your face towards the east or west but it is piety to believe In the God, so Qibla is from Quran and it is the word of the God.

that is a contradiction. And you know it. God cannot say "I'm everywhere," and "piiety is not to turn to the east or west" and then say "turn that way or go to hell!". That is a contradcition and you can't escape that fact. The only way it is not a contradiction is if the qibla is not a physical direction, but a mental direction for ourselves.
Just think about it, when you want to do something, you focus on that. You keep your eye on the prize. You concentrate on your goals. That is your target. Your qibla. Facing a certain place in saudi arabia will not help you achieve your goals if your focus is not on achieving those goals.
Do you understand where I'm coming from?
If I want to type this post, I don't focus on Mecca, I focus on what I'm going to say.

There is nothing "metaphorical" about this. It's just simple logic. I have found that turning toward mecca doesn't help me at all. But turning toward what I'm about to do and focus on my goals is what helps me. That is what I have verified.