Author Topic: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript  (Read 21368 times)

/*JM*/

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Re: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2008, 04:22:10 AM »
For Adultery stoning was used. Even though the Quran mandated flogging. Many laws and rules within the Quran were knowingly avoided. It was never considred the final word.

hello,

Could you provide evidence for that ?

Peace

L.Hu

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Re: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2008, 02:30:03 PM »
Peace

Many books on Islamic law a few decades after Muhammad can attest to it. Also ancient fuquh and there works and trestises can amply show the conflict between the relation of sunna to Quran. And many sources show and give amply evidence for a avoidence of Quranic rules and norms. In fact a crude form of legal seculurism was begining. For example Abbiaseds jailed prisoners. They also made bails. And the way and manner in which the courts took place contradicted the Quran in many ways. Witness laws were very different than what the Quran dictactes. If you want to know any of these laws many works can be found. Eventully the Qurans position was estabilesed as a paramount. But as stated before this created probelms. So sunna came along. But what the sunna was confused many. To some like Imam Malik the sunna was a living breathing authority found in the "Amal e Madinih" or the practice of Madinih. To some like Imam Shafi it was found in the Hadith. To some the sunna could be disregarded like Imam Abu Hanifi. To some it was a authority on par with the Quran. Imam Shafi sealed it up with his risala aa work which gives facinating glimes into the probelm. Patrica Crone makes note of the blatent disregard for Quranic laws in Gods Caliph. To her it means that the Quran was little known to the masses. Another western scholar seconds her opinon. But in the book cited above it is thoght that this means the had less authority. Another scholar I think (not sure) Mcdonald thinks aswell. If you read Madigan's book look at the footnotes. Also a correcttion. Quranic canonisation is dealt extensively in the second part of chapter 1 and in the footnotes.

God bless
Lareb

jonny_k

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Re: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2008, 06:39:44 AM »
Peace "L.Hu",
So what your saying is that a society truly following Quran Alone or better deriving the basic laws from Quran Alone never existed, even not during the time of Muhammad's lifetime? GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

L.Hu

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Re: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2008, 09:39:21 AM »
Peace Jonny

No brother. As I said early muslims would have followed the Quran during the prophet Muhammad's time. The context in which the Quran came brother is facinating. The arabs before having the Quran felt that they were out of God's plan. This idea was emerging because of a increase in monutheistic arabs. Jews had a scripture. Christans had a sripture. Yet Allah some how forgot the arabs. The Quran beatifuly answered this longing for a scripture and presented and introduced to the starveing desert arabs ethics,  morality, brotherhood and kindness. It taught the arabs that senseless killing and murder were wrong. Inheriting women agianst there will was wrong. Worshiping useless unhelpful Gods was wrong. Being cruel was wrong. Anger in its violent form was wrong. Blind faith was wrong. In other words it taught them how to turn from a savage rough and cruel pot of tribes into a civilisesd people how influince the mediterrain and the world. And here my last sentence sums up the probelm. Islam is thought by us to be a Global religion alongside other universal religions. But the Quranic veiw of things is somewhat diffrent. Muhammad is a messenger to the arabs. I am not saying brother that you and me can not follow the Quran since both of us are not arabs. The Quran is a anti racist book. It is filled with egalitraism. In fact its Quranic egalitarinsim that won the arabs over to Islam. But we need to realise the Quran did not drop from the sky. It came peice by peice. To make long story short brother Quran was meant for the arabs. Just as Torah was for Jews. But we can still follow Al Quran. And to be more specific legally the Quran is tied intimately with the early muslim community of Mecca and Medina. This is way the Quran was more of a symbol of God than his word. A assurence that God was not some obscure figure who did not care about you. A assurence that God communicates with man. If you doubt all of this brother jonny a will ask you a qeustion. How did the hadith emerge. Your answer ( I might be wrong) is corruption. My answer is flexeble attitudes toward the Quran. If you are confused concerning mmy ideas you may ask me. I am open to qeuations.

Lareb

 :peace:

jonny_k

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Re: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2008, 10:05:11 AM »
Peace "L.Hu",

Quote
...Yet Allah some how forgot the arabs...

JK- I hope you meant this statement in reference to what the disbelievers thought of GOD since GOD never forgets and everything happens at an appropriate time. NOW you say that the Quran was only for the Arabs BUT this cannot be true. First of all the Quran focuses a great deal on correcting the corrupted Jewish and Christian beliefs as well. If you look at the OT you can see how it is filled with nonsense and absurdities. Then the Quran says that Muhammad was sent as a mercy to ALL NATIONS(wa ma arsalnaaKA illa rahmata lil 'ALAMEEN) in his time and there were more than Arabs just in his time too. So this cannot be true. Besides this the Quran generally addresses all mankind in many verses and 5:3 mentions clearly that this day GOD has perfected the system named Islam and also calling Muhammad the last of the Prophets i.e. those who deliver a Divine scripture. All this adds up and leads to the conclusion that the Quran is overall universal although it does mention various events in it which were applicable only at the particular times and it states so too. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

L.Hu

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Re: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2008, 03:05:24 PM »
Brother jonny ofcoures I meant unbelivers. I will reply to your objections later bro. Right now I will start a separate topic on my veiw of the Quran. If you read it when its done your objections might be answered.

God bless

mr. humble

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Re: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2008, 04:04:37 PM »
sorry for the off topic post,

two days ago i saw a documentary on national geography channel about quran... at the end of the documentary they said something i think is false is that quran was burned down and then later re-written in the 7th century...

in USA eastern time 900 pm-11:00pm tuesday, august 5th the program "interpreting the quran" was broadcasted on natioanl geographic channel.

i think that documentary showed some truth about islam and some lies at the same time, probably biased research lies fabricated by atheists

Allah knows best!
"So have Patience(O Mohammad)! Allah's promise is the very truth, and let not those who have uncertainty make you impatient."
-Surah 30:60 (Translation from M.M. Pickthall)

jonny_k

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Re: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2008, 06:26:54 AM »
Peace "mr. humble",
I found some videos on youtube in relation to "islam". Could you point out to me whether your claimed documentary is amongst them and which video and which PART EXACTLY mentions that the original Quran has been burnt? Thankyou very much and here is the list of videos:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=national+geographic+quran&search_type=&aq=f
GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

mr. humble

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Re: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2008, 04:15:56 AM »
peace, "Jonny_k"

it was titled: "interpreting the quran"

i am sorry to say..i didn't completely trust that video, it contained information which are a mixture of lies and truth about islam.

at first it showed how muslims interpret 24:31(the verses about hijaab)

then it showed 5:32 and 5:33 contradict each other and the difference between "peaceful muslims" and "violent muslims"..although i disagree!

then at the end it showed how in 7th century they found this "pile of washed up quran" and how arabic writers "re-wrote" it...i think the whole thing was bogus..they probably want to dismiss the idea of a true religion!(they said many things which were, to me as a muslim, questionable...)

here is the national geographic link:

http://ngcblog.nationalgeographic.com/ngcblog/2008/07/interpreting_the_koran.html

may peace be on you, Rifat
"So have Patience(O Mohammad)! Allah's promise is the very truth, and let not those who have uncertainty make you impatient."
-Surah 30:60 (Translation from M.M. Pickthall)

maxq

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Re: Epigraphic Evidence of a Complete Pre-Uthmanic Quranic Manuscript
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2008, 11:33:42 AM »
you sure you pointed to the correct link there bro? I do not see the same thing... I mean it is just showing diversity of belief. What's with the "washed up Quran" being rewritten? Would be interested in seeing that one.
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