Author Topic: Ibn Khaldun: Some Muslim Historians Invented Lies  (Read 9907 times)

Wakas

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Re: Ibn Khaldun: Some Muslim Historians Invented Lies
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2008, 05:34:32 AM »
peace all,

Re: Mu'tazili

From my brief studies on this topic, it seems the Mu'tazili thinking/views had the dominant view in the very early days. This is supported by what I've read. See this thread:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7165.0

Quote
827 = the authority of the state supports the theological teaching of the Mu'tazila, especially the dogma of the 'createdness' of the Koran. The traditionalist Ahmad ibn Hanbal (780-855) is persecuted as the representative of the opposition (ahl al-hadith) to rationalist theology.
813-33 ?cultural and scientific heyday? ?Suppression of the traditionalist piety of the ahl al-hadith in favour of the rationalistic dogmatics of the Mu'tazila.?

Even if we say their view/thinking was not the dominant one of the time, it was certainly very significant at the time.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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ILisa

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Re: Ibn Khaldun: Some Muslim Historians Invented Lies
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2008, 10:05:18 PM »
Greetings Wakas,

Thank you for the link and sharing your research.  It's interesting; however I noticed a discrepancy in the postings that bothered me a bit -- 'Sha' cut and pasted a text that said that al-Kindi (d. 866) was considered the founder of the 'school' -- but if that were so, it would throw off the other timelines. Do you know what's going on with this bit of 'info'?

 
Your conscience is at least your own, and to follow it is to be a man; to follow the conscience of another is to be a slave.
                                                                          ~ James Allen

Wakas

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Re: Ibn Khaldun: Some Muslim Historians Invented Lies
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2008, 01:13:25 PM »
peace ILisa,

Can you post the variable info, ideally with links/references, so I can see what you mean.

Thanks.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Wakas

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Re: Ibn Khaldun: Some Muslim Historians Invented Lies
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2008, 01:23:49 PM »
I think I see what you mean, al kindi was said to be the founder, but that's not true according to these:
http://www.mutazila.com/ba/bio/mutazila/mutazila.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kindi
Quote
Earlier experts had suggested that he was influenced by the Mutazilite school of theology, because of the mutual concern both he and they demonstrated for maintaining the pure unity (tawhid) of God. However, such agreements are now considered incidental, as further study has shown that they disagreed on a number of equally important topics.[44]


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

ILisa

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Re: Ibn Khaldun: Some Muslim Historians Invented Lies
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2008, 01:58:00 AM »
Greetings Wakas,

Yes, you caught what I saw.  Thanks for taking the time.  So, do you think the author of the cut and pasted text is just confused?? 
Your conscience is at least your own, and to follow it is to be a man; to follow the conscience of another is to be a slave.
                                                                          ~ James Allen

Wakas

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Re: Ibn Khaldun: Some Muslim Historians Invented Lies
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2008, 03:38:08 AM »
I haven't researched it enough to say, sorry.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Mutazilah

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Re: Ibn Khaldun: Some Muslim Historians Invented Lies
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2009, 02:52:10 PM »

 Selam!

 Some new findings (the great Khutba of Wasil ibn Ata, translated in german), show that the story of "withdrawing from Hasan al Basri" was a sunni invention in order to:
1. Rehabilitate Hasan al Basri who was a Qadarite
2. Demonstrate that the "mutazilites" were sectarians who left the sunni majority believe, which in fact did not exist at that time.

The Mutazilites of the first generations called themselves "Ahlu Tawhid vel Adl". The sunni name "Ahlu Sunna vel jema" was an answer to the first one. Most of the philosophers have shared some views with the mutazilites. Some of them (Al-Kindi) are supposed to be mutazilites (despite the fact that Al-Kindi didn't agree with them in every topic)


Literature:



(i) Catalogues and Handbooks:
Gregor Schwarb: ?Un projet international: le manuel des oeuvres et manuscrits mu?tazilites.?
Chronique du manuscrit au Y?men 2 (Juni 2006) [http://cy.revues.org/document198.html]

Handbook of Mu?tazilite Works and Manuscripts. General Editors: Sabine Schmidtke, Gregor
Schwarb, David Sklare. Leiden: Brill (Handbuch der Orientalistik) (forthcoming).

Sabine Schmidtke: ?Catalogue of the Mu?tazili Manuscripts in the Abraham Firkovitch Collection
(Arabski-Arabski), St. Petersburg.? A Common Rationality. Mu?tazilism in Islam and Judaism. Eds.
Camilla Adang, Sabine Schmidtke & David Sklare. W?rzburg: Ergon (forthcoming).

(ii) Editions:

Abu l-Qasim al-Busti: Kitab al-Bahth ?an adillat al-takfir wa l-tafsiq (Investigation of the evidence for
charging with kufr and fisq). Edited with an Introduction by Wilferd Madelung & Sabine
Schmidtke. Tehran: Iran University Press, 1382/2004.

Sabine Schmidtke: ?Re-Edition of al-Minhaj fi usul al-din by Jar Allah al-Zamakhshari.? [Persian]
Ma?arif 20 iii (1382/2004), pp. 107-148

Yusuf al-Basir: Das Buch der Unterscheidung. Jud?o-arabisch ? Deutsch. ?bersetzt und eingeleitet
von Wolfgang von Abel. Freiburg: Herder, 2005.

Abu l-Husayn al-Basri: Tasaffuh al-adilla. The extant parts introduced and edited by Wilferd
Madelung & Sabine Schmidtke. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2006.

An Anonymous Commentary on Kitab al-Tadhkira by Ibn Mattawayh. Facsimile Edition of Mahdavi Codex
514 (6th/12th Century). Introduction and Indices by Sabine Schmidtke. Tehran: Iranian Institute
of Philosophy & Institute of Islamic Studies, Free University of Berlin, 2006. (Series on
Islamic Philosophy and Theology. Texts and Studies; 1)

Khulasat al-nazar. An Anonymous Imami-Mu?tazili Treatise (late 6th/12th or early 7th/13th century). Edited
with an Introduction by Sabine Schmidtke and Hasan Ansari. Tehran: Iranian Institute of
Philosophy & Institute of Islamic Studies, Free University of Berlin, 2006. (Series on Islamic
Philosophy and Theology. Texts and Studies; 2)

Omar Hamdan & Sabine Schmidtke: ?Qadi ?Abd al-Jabbar al-Hamadhani (d. 415/1025) on the
Promise and Threat. An Edition of a Fragment of his Kitab al-Mughni fi abwab al-tawhid wa l-?adl
preserved in the Firkovitch-Collection, St. Petersburg (II Firk. Arab. 105, ff. 14-92).? M?langes
de l?Institut dominicain d?Etudes orientales 27 (2006) (in press).

Rukn al-Din Ibn al-Malahimi al-Khwarazmi: Kitab al-Fa?iq fi usul al-din. Edited with an
Introduction by Wilferd Madelung and Martin McDermott Tehran: Iranian Institute of
Philosophy & Institute of Islamic Studies, Free University of Berlin (in press)

Rukn al-Din Ibn al-Malahimi al-Khwarazmi: Tuhfat al-mutakallimin fi l-radd ala l-falasifa. Edited
with an Introduction by Wilferd Madelung, Hasan Ansari and Sabine Schmidtke. Tehran:
Iranian Institute of Philosophy & Institute of Islamic Studies, Free University of Berlin
(forthcoming)

Rukn al-Din Ibn al-Malahimi al-Khwarazmi: Kitab al-Mu?tamad fi usul al-din. Revised and enlarged
edition by Wilferd Madelung. Tehran: Iranian Institute of Philosophy & Institute of Islamic
Studies, Free University of Berlin (forthcoming)

(iii) Studies:

Sabine Schmidtke: ?II Firk. Arab. 111 ? A copy of al-Sharif al-Murtada?s Kitab al-Dhakhira
completed in 472/1079-80 in the Firkovitch-Collection, St. Petersburg.? [Persian] Ma?arif 20
ii (1382/2003), pp. 68-84.

Margaretha T. Heemskerk: ?A Mu?tazilite Refutation of Christianity and Judaism. Two
Fragments from ?Abd al-Jabbar?s al-Mughni fi abwab al-tawhid wa-l-?adl.? In: The Three Rings.
Textual Studies in the Historical Trialogue of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Eds. B. Roggema, M.
Poorthuis and P. Valkenberg. Leuven 2005, pp. 183-201.

 Wilferd Madelung: ?Abu l-Husayn al-Basri?s proof of the existence of God.? Arabic Theology,
Arabic Philosophy, from the Many to the One. Essays in Celebration of Richard M. Frank. Ed. James
Montgomery. Leuven 2006, pp. 273-80.

Wilferd Madelung & Sabine Schmidtke: Rational Theology in Interfaith Communication. Abu l-Husayn
al-Basri's Mu?tazili Theology among the Karaites in the Fatimid Age. Leiden: Brill, 2006.

Sabine Schmidtke: ?The Karaites? Encounter with the Thought of Abu l-Husayn al-Basri (d.
436/1044). A Survey of the Relevant Materials in the Firkovitch-Collection, St. Petersburg.?
Arabica 53 (2006), pp. 108-42.

A Common Rationality. Mu?tazilism in Islam and Judaism. Eds. Camilla Adang, Sabine Schmidtke &
David Sklare. W?rzburg: Ergon (Istanbuler Texte und Studien) (forthcoming)

Gregor Schwarb: ?D?couverte d?un nouveau fragment du Kitab al-mughni fi abwab al-tawhid
wa-l-adl du Qadi Abd al-Jabbar al-Hamadani dans une collection kara?te de la British Library.?
M?langes de l?Institut d?Etudes Orientales 27 (2006) (forthcoming)

Gregor Schwarb: ?Sahl b. al-Fadl al-Tustari?s K. al-ima.? Ginzei Qedem 2 (2006) (forthcoming)

Thomas Hildebrandt: Neo-Mu?tazilismus? Intention und Kontext im modernen arabischen Umgang mit dem
wiederentdeckten rationalistisch-theologischen Erbe des Islam. Leiden: Brill (forthcoming)

Futher readings:

http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/
amazone!
A se le?i Ljubljen u Vrhbosni ro?den v Vrhbosni zakpan na svojini na plemenitoj. Ja bjeh onaj tkoji cijel ?ivot na raskrsnicam stajah, razmi?ljah, oklijevah. Bjeh onaj tkoji se pitah kak to da nebo ne stari a iz njeg se stalno rad?aju nova i nova godi?nja doba. I u sobi gdje bjeh bje?e prozor, a iza prozora beskraj. Al ja uporno gledah u pod. I mi?ljah mojom smerti sve tće to konečno stati. Al nije i moja smert sve star?a i sve tje?nja je. Kam mi usječe Dra?eta a zapis upisa Husan ne da poka?u da bjeh vetć da me vi?lje neima. LJeta gospodnjeg 1258.

Mutazilah

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A se le?i Ljubljen u Vrhbosni ro?den v Vrhbosni zakpan na svojini na plemenitoj. Ja bjeh onaj tkoji cijel ?ivot na raskrsnicam stajah, razmi?ljah, oklijevah. Bjeh onaj tkoji se pitah kak to da nebo ne stari a iz njeg se stalno rad?aju nova i nova godi?nja doba. I u sobi gdje bjeh bje?e prozor, a iza prozora beskraj. Al ja uporno gledah u pod. I mi?ljah mojom smerti sve tće to konečno stati. Al nije i moja smert sve star?a i sve tje?nja je. Kam mi usječe Dra?eta a zapis upisa Husan ne da poka?u da bjeh vetć da me vi?lje neima. LJeta gospodnjeg 1258.