Root Kaf-Waw-Nun in 4:102

[loli]

Salamun aAlaikum brothers and sisters of free minds,

4:102. Wa-itha kunta feehim faaqamta lahumu alssalata faltaqum ta-ifatun minhum maAAaka walya/khuthoo aslihatahum fa-itha sajadoo falyakoonoo min wara-ikum walta/ti ta-ifatun okhra lam yusalloo falyusalloo maAAaka walya/khuthoo hithrahum waaslihatahum wadda allatheena kafaroo law taghfuloona AAan aslihatikum waamtiAAatikum fayameeloona AAalaykum maylatan wahidatan wala junaha AAalaykum in kana bikum athan min matarin aw kuntum marda an tadaAAoo aslihatakum wakhuthoo hithrakum inna Allaha aAAadda lilkafireena AAathaban muheenan

M.Ahmed/Samira
4:102 And if you were in them, so you started for them the prayer, so a group from them should stand with you, and they should take their weapons/arms, so if they prostrated, so they be from behind you, and another group should come (that) they did not pray, so they pray (E) with you, and they should take their caution, and their weapons/arms; those who disbelieved, wished if you ignore/neglect your weapons/arms, and your belongings/effects/goods, so they lean on you one bend, and no offense/guilt (is) on you if mild harm was with you from rain or you were sick/diseased, that you lay your weapons/arms, and take your caution, that God prepared to the disbelievers a degrading/humiliating torture.

I would like to verify the root word for the highlighted transliteration. Is it Kaf-Waw-Nun? I have checked with Project root list and A concordance, 4:102 is not listed in root kaf-waw-nun. If so what is the root for the bolded transliteration?

I also would like some comments regarding the verse itself falyakoonoo min wara-ikum. Does this verse mentioned that the 1st group who prayed with "you" have to move backwards behind "you" after they have prostrated?

Seeking for comments and verification from brothers and sisters here.

salam.

[Samia]

falyakoonoo is in fact three words; that's why you did not find its root.

fa: so
l: is a tool of command for the second and third person, the verb that follows it is in the jussive.

yakoonoo: Originally: yakoonoon; but as it is in the jussive, the "nuun" is eliminated

falyakoonoo: so they should be
min waraa'ikum: behind you (waraa': behind; kum: you)

[loli]

falyakoonoo is in fact three words; that's why you did not find its root.

fa: so
l: is a tool of command for the second and third person, the verb that follows it is in the jussive.

yakoonoo: Originally: yakoonoon; but as it is in the jussive, the "nuun" is eliminated

Salam Samia,

Thanks for the input, appreciate it, can i know what is the root word yahoonoo, checked with Hans Wehr, it point to root alif-lam-ya-ka-waw-nun it points to Kaf-Waw-Nun.

However checked with PRL and Hanna E Kassis concordance 4:102 is not included in root kaf-waw-nun. Appreciate you could iron out the ambiguities here.

falyakoonoo: so they should be
min waraa'ikum: behind you (waraa': behind; kum: you)

I believe that min waraa'ikum means "Of behind you" or "From behind you" correct me if im wrong.

salam

[Samia]

The root is Kaf Wau Noon.

You are right. Min is from, so it is "from behind you".

it point to root alif-lam-ya-ka-waw-nun

[Wakas]

peace loli, samia, all,

loli, you may find the following post useful:
http://www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=3896.msg50177#msg50177

Also, DofQ states the root is "Kaf-Alif-Nun", p500 if you have it. Sometimes the vowels in roots can be interchanged: Alif/Waw/Ya. This caught me out a few times.

Samia, I have discussed this sign with mq and got some variations:

1) so/then they are of/from behind them
2) so/then they should be behind them
3) so/then they are of/from behind you
4) so/then they should be behind you

Which is the most accurate?

The reason I ask is that it may have an impact on the physical positioning of the people mentioned.


Thanks,
Wakas

[loli]

Salaam Samia,

Thanx for verifying

Salam Wakas,

Thanx for the suggestion, acctually i was hoping that you would chip in..;
Anyway thanx for the link. appriciate our ideas.

fal            -         so/then they
yakunu      -         were/will be/would be
min           -         from/of
waraa'       -         behind
kum          -          you

Samia, I have discussed this sign with mq and got some variations:

1) so/then they are of/from behind them
2) so/then they should be behind them
3) so/then they are of/from behind you
4) so/then they should be behind you

from the list of posible translation that you gave, i notice that you translated kum into "you" or "them". As per my understanding current the arabic form for "them" is hum, how can this option comes in the picture?

My understanding currently when the 1st group have SJD(passed tense), the 1st group have to move  behind "you". Then the 2nd groups joins in with "you" for the yusallu.
Therefore if i can imagine this correctly, the 1st group is in one line with "you" in the salat, then after the 1st group have SJD, they will move behind "you" and and comes the 2nd group to join the line.

However this will not sync with the traditional fear prayer found in hadiths, any feedback on the physical position in appriciated.

salam.


p/s Wakas: Since we are syncronize with root Kaf-Waw-Nun or Kaf-Alif-Nun is in 4:102, should it be added in PRL? Just a thought for future reference.

[Wakas]

peace loli,

Well I originally never paid attention to the "kum" until reading this thread. After speaking to mq, he said it was "them (plural)". Hence posting it here for clarification.

The reason I posted it was picked up by you:

However this will not sync with the traditional fear prayer found in hadiths, any feedback on the physical position in appriciated.

Exactly, hence trying to clarify exactly what is being said.

I will add 4:102 in brackets at this stage under the root.


Wakas

[Samia]

Salaam Wakas

As a general rule, when the middle letter is an alif, grammarians believe that it may not be an original one, and might be turned from an original "ya" or  "wau". In the case of "kaana كان ", it is most probably derived from "kawn كون : being, and is used to mean universe in MSA". Then we have the present/future tense: yakuun يكون , and the short "u" vowel after the kaaf in the prefixed past tense: kuntum; kuntu; kunta..etc. The wau exists more than the alif; hence the root kaf wau nuun. In fact I never found it with the root kaf alif nuun.

But there is a kaf hamza nuun: ka'ana كأن which means "to become severe". It is a completely different word, and hardly used.

As for the four options, I would go with: then they should be behind you. So they should be... gives the impression of  "as a result, or therefore" which I do not feel.

And it is "you, plural" not "them".

[Wakas]

peace Samia,

Thanks for the clarification.

As a general rule, when the middle letter is an alif, grammarians believe that it may not be an original one, and might be turned from an original "ya" or  "wau". In the case of "kaana كان ", it is most probably derived from "kawn كون : being, and is used to mean universe in MSA". Then we have the present/future tense: yakuun يكون , and the short "u" vowel after the kaaf in the prefixed past tense: kuntum; kuntu; kunta..etc. The wau exists more than the alif; hence the root kaf wau nuun. In fact I never found it with the root kaf alif nuun.

But there is a kaf hamza nuun: ka'ana كأن which means "to become severe". It is a completely different word, and hardly used.

See p500 of DofQ for what I was referring to.


Yes, by "them" I should have meant "you (plural)".

So its "then they (1st group) should be behind you (plural)".

The question arises, does the plural "you" include the leader?


Wakas

[Samia]

What's DofQ ?