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Revised Article on Jinn

Started by Layth, November 04, 2006, 12:54:40 AM

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BOOST

Peace

To those who believe jinn means thoughts or emotions:

Do you all see how you aren't really going by what is laid out in the quran? Do you see how you added many elements not found in the quran to reach your conclusion? When we approach the quran, we cannot add conjecture to decide on an issue. I think we as humans are definitely limited in our understanding of the world around us. It makes perfect sense that there are things we can't see but still exist.

maxq

Then I DARE a jinn to show up at my doorstep (and grant me three wishes - lol - that was a bad joke, I apologize in advance)
בשס האלה השדי והרחס - האלה ור השמים והארץ


Arnold Yasin

Quote from: BOOST on November 07, 2006, 04:29:58 PM
Peace

To those who believe jinn means thoughts or emotions:

Do you all see how you aren't really going by what is laid out in the quran? Do you see how you added many elements not found in the quran to reach your conclusion? When we approach the quran, we cannot add conjecture to decide on an issue. I think we as humans are definitely limited in our understanding of the world around us. It makes perfect sense that there are things we can't see but still exist.

Peace,

added? dear boost don't you see that you limit the arabic by approaching it as titles? I challenge you to show me one thing were i added anything in my article's conclusions on verses that is not from the Quran...........

Lobster

Peace
Quote
Do you all see how you aren't really going by what is laid out in the quran? Do you see how you added many elements not found in the quran to reach your conclusion? When we approach the quran, we cannot add conjecture to decide on an issue. I think we as humans are definitely limited in our understanding of the world around us. It makes perfect sense that there are things we can't see but still exist.
Bold print=B.S.
See, Boost, God (or whoever or whatever wrote this book) would never include something that we can never know. It's ridiculous. The Quran's not a test, it's a piece of advice.
I know that maybe (and that's big maybe) we aren't supposed to know everything. You can't teach your cat General Relativity, and maybe you can't teach humans exactly how this universe works. But why would the Quran, in one place, say that we should explore the world and find out things, and in other places discourage us by implying that we aren't supposed to know everything?
And how are invisible beings supposed to help us out in ANY possible way?
What you said (bolded) sounds a lot like religious leaders and priests who believe blindly and don't like people asking questions. "God works in mysterious ways...we aren't supposed to know everything...asking too many questions angers God..." The Quran isn't something we believe in. It's something we try to understand and follow. There is no way the quran can help me if I don't understand what it's saying. I mean, what the hell are angels? Why havn't I seen them?
And when I ask people why they believe in these invisible beings, the answers usually are:
1. God is testing our faith. We should believe whatever God says (keep in mind that I'm not talking about God, I'm talking about the Quran. Not the same thing.)
2. I believe the Quran is from God- and I have sufficient proof that it is from God- so these fairies and elves and easter bunnies (sorry) must also exist.
3. Phoenix, why do you need proof for everything? your faith is so weak!!! you are a kafir!! I will pray to God for your soul. May Allah forgive you for doubting the existence of invisible beings.

And people, none of the above answers is good enough. Not even close.
Our ability to reason and our senses are the only tools we have to seperate truth from falsehood. There is no other way to tell the differences between BS and divine truth. Let's not abandon these tools. Let's use them.

If the Quran tells us to believe in invisible beings (I don't think it does), then the logical conclusion would be that the Quran is WRONG. Not that God is conducting some cruel experiments on His subjects by "testing our faith."

"faith is believing something that you know ain't so." ~ Mark Twain.
Well, let's stop having faith. And let's start KNOWING.

So, for those of you who believe in invisible beings, you have the rest of my life to bring me evidence of these creatures. If you fail to do so, please understand that no such thing exists. If you do bring me evidence, then I will thank you and send you a signed picture of me. Free.
`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

'Phoenix! You are in Hot water, maybe you should change your name to Lobster.' - Khalil

Layth

Peace,

Just to point out some flaws in the counter-arguments being presented:

1. Saying that we see and sence all intelligent beings is untrue as we cannot see or know Angels yet we are told they exist and that they have intermingled with man on many occasion.

2. Saying that there is no need to travel to the outer heavens to listen to God since He is closer than our jugular vein ignores the statement which read `to listen in on God`s commands to His angels`. God does not give instructions to His angels through your jugular vein, He does so in a form and place that is beyond human ability.

3. On the issue of translating Jinn to `concealed` it still does not change the fact that these `concealed` entities were created to worship God, were able to travel the outer heavens, were created before mankind, Satan was one of them, were forced to follow Solomon`s command, etc..   

4. On the subject of `whispers` from satan and his followers. It has been pointed out already that a) these whispers are suggestions and not commands, thus they do not interfere with free-will, b) these whispers may be blocked by seeking God`s help.

I disagree with brother Boost where he says that people have added information to get the wrong conclusion. My view is that people are deducting information by clealy ignoring verses which contradict their view. I have seen this same style being done with other issues such as Salat where people who do not like to think of it as a physical effort will simply ignore verses like 5:6 (ablution) to make their case.   

Quranic verses on any subject are to be taken as whole to make a conclusion, else the wrong conclusion will be reached.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

BOOST

Peace Phoenix

Have you seen God? I guess He doesn't exist then? Well you have the rest of your life to see Him, and if you don't .... good luck.

Many people don't understand things in the quran at the level that you do. Does that mean the quran wasn't written for the less intelligent?

Scientists understand this limitation. They try their best to understand the world around them but they know it may be impossible to fully understand everything. Theories evolve and disappear and come back in new forms. It's nothing new.

If you boast to know the world and everything in it, in your lifetime, then hats off to you. You may be the first person on earth with all the answers.

Peace Arnold

Where in the quran does it say that jinn could be travelers or foreigners? Made of smokeless fire? That go to the outer limits of the universe and try to gain secrets? Whisper to people? Sorry I didn't come across such foreigners. And I didn't see that verse in the quran either.

Lobster

QuoteHave you seen God? I guess He doesn't exist then? Well you have the rest of your life to see Him, and if you don't .... good luck.
peace
I knew this would come up. Well, I havn't used my vision to sense God, but I have seen evidence that points toward that direction. There are signs of God everywhere.
In the case of angels, 0 evidence. There is no sign.

QuoteMany people don't understand things in the quran at the level that you do. Does that mean the quran wasn't written for the less intelligent?
Maybe it wasn't. But the quran's message isn't about being intelligent. It's about our struggle to fight our desires and emotions and believe in what's right. It's not an intellectual battle at all. Anyone can do it. There is nothing complicated about the quran's message. Nothing an average human being will not understand.
But when we are told to believe in things that we have never felt or seen any signs of, that's a problem.

QuoteIf you boast to know the world and everything in it, in your lifetime, then hats off to you. You may be the first person on earth with all the answers.
I didn't say I know all the answers, no one does. But that doesn't mean we should abandon all reason and believe in whatever a book tells us.
Why would God give us a book that we can't understand? why would he tell us about angels when we don't know what the heck they are? makes absolutely no sense to me. If God goes to great lengths to prove His existence (with miracles) then why not give us some evidence of angels? why not perform a miracle right now?
You have to admit that your view contradicts logic and reason.
And if this book wasn't written by God, then there is even little reason to believe in these invisible creatures.

And didn't you do some research and say that the stories of Jesus and Moses could be allegories passed down from generation to generation? if so, then why can't the word "hidden" and "controllers" be used in a metaphoric sense?
And I refuse to use the word jinn and angels from now on. I think the untranslated and wrongly translated forms of these words further cloud the meanings.
`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

'Phoenix! You are in Hot water, maybe you should change your name to Lobster.' - Khalil

maxq

I think Phoenix1 has made a good point... I also do not want to repeat my posts

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=526.msg105619#msg105619


Quote from: BOOST on November 08, 2006, 07:58:43 AM
Peace Phoenix

Have you seen God? I guess He doesn't exist then? Well you have the rest of your life to see Him, and if you don't .... good luck.

Many people don't understand things in the quran at the level that you do. Does that mean the quran wasn't written for the less intelligent?

Scientists understand this limitation. They try their best to understand the world around them but they know it may be impossible to fully understand everything. Theories evolve and disappear and come back in new forms. It's nothing new.

If you boast to know the world and everything in it, in your lifetime, then hats off to you. You may be the first person on earth with all the answers.

Peace Arnold

Where in the quran does it say that jinn could be travelers or foreigners? Made of smokeless fire? That go to the outer limits of the universe and try to gain secrets? Whisper to people? Sorry I didn't come across such foreigners. And I didn't see that verse in the quran either.
בשס האלה השדי והרחס - האלה ור השמים והארץ

ayman

Peace brother Layth,

Thank you for posting this revised article. It is a good way to revitalize the discussions about this important question. Also bringing the appropriate passages of the great reading to support the article is a good approach. Therefore, I will focus on addressing more deeply the issues raised by those passages so as to encourage further discussions.

Quote from: Layth on November 04, 2006, 12:54:40 AM\"I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me.\" (51:56)

How do jinn serve the god? What good do jiinn do?

Quote from: Layth on November 04, 2006, 12:54:40 AM\"He created the human from a clay, like pottery. And the Jinn He created from a smokeless fire.\" (55:14-15)
\"And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped. And the Jinn, We created him before that from the flames of fire.\" (15:26-27)

Are humans anything like clay? If I put a human next to a piece of clay, will I see any resemblance? Is clay what you are? Is clay what defines the human self?

This is all that iblis saw. He saw a creature that originated from clay. This was a mistake of arrogance. Arrogance blinds from the truth. Let's not make the same mistake as our enemy and consider him superficially as what he originated from.

Quote from: Layth on November 04, 2006, 12:54:40 AM\"And we touched the heavens, but found it full of powerful guards and projectiles. And we used to sit in it in places of listening, but anyone who sits now finds a projectile seeking him.\" (72:8-9)

Humans are bombarded by projectiles when they go to outerspace. I worked on a project once to figure out the best location inside a next-generation space station to minimize exposure to cosmic particles. In particular, heavy nuclei in cosmic radiation were proven to cause brain damage.

Quote from: Layth on November 04, 2006, 12:54:40 AM\"O Children of Adam, do not let the devil afflict you as he evicted your parents from the paradise; he removes from them their garments to show them their lusts. He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them. We have made the devils as allies for those who do not believe.\" (7:27)

We only see the superficial body of people. We do not see the real self of a person. You can't see the thoughts of even the closest people to you.

Quote from: Layth on November 04, 2006, 12:54:40 AM\"But the devil whispered to him, he said: \'O Adam, shall I lead you to the tree of immortality and a kingdom which will not waste away?\'\" (20:120)

We are similarly told in 50:16 that the human self "whispers". Our self communicates with us using the same way of "communication" as the "jinn". How does your self whisper? We all know the answer. Anyone who has had a thought knows. Just think about it.

Quote from: Layth on November 04, 2006, 12:54:40 AM\"And We created you, then We shaped you, then We said to the Angels: \'Yield to Adam;\' so they yielded except for Satan, he was not of those who yielded. He said: \'What has prevented you from yielding when I have ordered you?\' He said: \'I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!\'\" (7:11-12)

While the Jinn were created long before mankind to uphold God\'s commands and serve Him alone, the Jinn had failed in their task and the mantle of responsibility was passed on from the Jinn to the humans by God\'s decree.

This is not what 7:11-12 says. Which passage in the great reading might that be? Where does it say that the jinn had failed? Where is the passage about the mantle of responsibility being passed from jinn to humans?

Quote from: Layth on November 04, 2006, 12:54:40 AM\"And entice whoever you can of them with your voice, and mobilize all your forces and men against them, and you may share with them in their money and children, and promise them.? But the devil promises nothing but deceit. \'As for My servants, you will have no power over them.\' And your Lord suffices as a Caretaker.\" (17:64-65)

How can aliens made of plasma share in the humans' money and children?

Quote from: Layth on November 04, 2006, 12:54:40 AM\"And among us are those who are good doers, and some of us are opposite to that, we are in many paths. And we acknowledge that we cannot escape God on Earth, nor can we escape Him if we run. And when we heard the guidance, we believed in it. So whoever believes in his Lord, then he will not fear a decrease in reward, nor a burdensome punishment. And among us are those who submitted, and among us are the compromisers. As for those who have submitted, they have sought what is correct. And as for the compromisers, they are firewood for Hell.\" (72:11-15)

What is the good that the good-doing jinn do?

Quote from: Layth on November 04, 2006, 12:54:40 AM\"And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him by his Lord\'s leave; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire. They made for him what he desired of enclosures, and statues, and pools of deep reservoirs, and heavy pots. ?O family of David, work to show thanks.? Only a few of My servants are appreciative. Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realised that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.\" (34:12-14)

Would you know right away that a man who is standing and leaning on his staff has died?

Unfortunately brother, you have not considered all the passages that talk about "jinn".

For example, you have not considered 34:40-41 and 53:19-28, which when taken together clearly indicate that Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are jinn. Are Allat, Al3uzza and Manat plasma aliens?

You have also not considered passages such as 6:100:

6:100. And they made for The God partners the "jinn" and their creation and they made up for Him sons and daughters without knowledge, be He exalted and He is above what they describe.

I do not know of anyone who takes "aliens made of plasma" as partners with the god. In fact, if we try to substitute "aliens made of plasma" in all the occurrences of the word "jinn", we would certainly see the logical difficulties this creates. For example, here:

6:100. And they made for The God partners aliens made of plasma and their creation and they made up for Him sons and daughters without knowledge, be He exalted and He is above what they describe.

The same thing can be said about 37:158-159. Try substituting "aliens made of plasma" here and you will see the difficulty:

37:158-159. And they made between Him and the "jinn" a kinship while the "jinn" know that they are summoned. The God be most exalted above what they describe.

How do humans enjoy "aliens made of plasma" below?

6:128. And at the time when He gathers them together, "O consorts of "jinn" you took a lot of the humans" and their protectors from the humans said: "our Lord, we enjoyed one another and we reached our term that You appointed for us." He said: "The fire is your abode, everlasting in it, except what The God willed, your Lord is wise, knowledgeable.

How did aliens made of plasma invent lies about the prophets?

6:112. And like this we made for each prophet enemies, those exceeding in corruption from the humans and the "jinn", they inspire one another with fancy sayings out of arrogance and had The God willed, they wouldn't have done it. So leave them and what they make up.

Finally, just look inside you. When long ago you were following the wrong path and Hadiths had power over you, was it because of "aliens made of plasma"? What fundamentally makes humans do wrong? This is the real enemy. This is what matters.

Peace,

Ayman
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