Author Topic: Creation vs Evolution  (Read 5208 times)

jankren

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Creation vs Evolution
« on: October 30, 2006, 09:05:45 PM »
Peace :),

Recently I received some kind of leaflet on the street from someone who gave it out for free. Apparently it contains arguments that promotes Creation and Intelligent Design. It also calls for its teaching in schools which makes me realize that this is another effort of evangelists.

Anyway here are the arguments:

1) Natural Selection is not evidence of evolution.

2) Bacteria can only make bacteria and people can only make people. Changes can occur but within limits. If bacteria gets mutated it is still bacteria.

3) Variations of traits happen all the time within a species, but it is not an evidence of one kind of animal evolves into another kind of animal.

4) Saying changes take millions of years as evidence is blind faith because scientific answers are based on facts and observation, not faith in time.

5) Believing the Universe originated from nothing violates the 1st Law of Thermo which states that "All matter and energy is neither created nor destroyed."

6) Only 23% of the fossils of Lucy, the supposedly ape-like ancestor of human being, was dug out. Moreover, Lucy's fossils are similiar to Pygmy Chimpanzee who can walk upright and are still alive today.

7) Cell Theory and Law of Biogenesis state "Life only comes from life." Therefore the belief that life comes from non-life is against science itself.

8 ) Even Dinosaurs did not evolve because there are no transitional fossils of them ever found. They all appear in the fossil record as 100% dinosaur.

9) The Great Flood (Noah's Flood?) which once drowned the earth under water was the cause of the extinction of dinosaurs. The evidence is that their fossils are found buried in sedimentary rock (Rock deposited by water) on every continent in the world. Plus, fossils of sea life are also found on the top of the highest mountains such as Mt. Everest.

So what is everybody's take on the arguments above? Im ignorant myself regarding science, however Im very interested in the Great Flood Theory.


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Andya Primanda

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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2006, 01:17:15 AM »
Peace Jankren,

I guess the responsibility is mine... so I would throw that away and direct you to talkorigins.org  :rotfl: just kidding.  I'll try to give brief answers--

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Natural Selection is not evidence of evolution.

Evolution is mutation plus natural selection plus time, so natural selection IS part of evolution.  Evidence of NS is evidence of one mechanism of evolution.

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Bacteria can only make bacteria and people can only make people. Changes can occur but within limits. If bacteria gets mutated it is still bacteria.

'Limits' of 'Kinds' are undefined by creationists.  Are cats one kind? Are apes one kind?  Are humans a different kind from other apes?

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Variations of traits happen all the time within a species, but it is not an evidence of one kind of animal evolves into another kind of animal.

Speciation is a process that has been documented in scientific literature (See talkorigins, Speciation FAQ).  If the creationists insist on 'kinds' then they should define what kinds are.

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Saying changes take millions of years as evidence is blind faith because scientific answers are based on facts and observation, not faith in time.

Extrapolation of observed mutation and natural selection rates makes it plausible for evolutionary changes to occur in millions of years, and even quicker.  Also, the fossil record, despite what creationists insist, do show different forms of life over millions of years.  Either that represents actual change or separate creations designed to look like change (aka the Trickster God hypothesis).

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Believing the Universe originated from nothing violates the 1st Law of Thermo which states that "All matter and energy is neither created nor destroyed.

And this argument damages creationism more than cosmology.  Could it be that the people that gave you the pamphlet are Hindus?  Their version of creationism postulates an eternal world with no 'starting point'.

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Only 23% of the fossils of Lucy, the supposedly ape-like ancestor of human being, was dug out. Moreover, Lucy's fossils are similiar to Pygmy Chimpanzee who can walk upright and are still alive today.

Having seen Lucy pics and replicas, I'd say 40% of the actual remains, and if symmetry is to be considered. 80% of her skeleton can be reconstructed.  Oh, and Lucy is different from extant chimps from the waist down--she's more like modern humans there.

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Cell Theory and Law of Biogenesis state "Life only comes from life." Therefore the belief that life comes from non-life is against science itself.

Both theories are not absolute statements and therefore not to be taken as such.

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Even Dinosaurs did not evolve because there are no transitional fossils of them ever found. They all appear in the fossil record as 100% dinosaur.

Ignorance on the dinosaur fossil record.  Early dinosaurs were smaller, lighter, less elaborate than the ones that come later.

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The Great Flood (Noah's Flood?) which once drowned the earth under water was the cause of the extinction of dinosaurs. The evidence is that their fossils are found buried in sedimentary rock (Rock deposited by water) on every continent in the world. Plus, fossils of sea life are also found on the top of the highest mountains such as Mt. Everest.

Biblical false story about a global flood.  The Qur'an hints that the flood was local.  Fossils in sedimetary rocks only hint that sedimentation [a regular natural phenomenon] is a major cause of fossilization. Marine fossils are found on the Himalayas because it was once seafloor, pushed skywards by plate tectonics.

Mostly typical 'easy' creationist arguments, bro.  I'd suggest you also check this part of Talkorigins: An Index to Creationist Claims.  If anyone want me to elaborate on any of the points, just ask.
29:20
Say: 'Travel through the earth and see how Allah initiate creation!'

Magi

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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2006, 02:21:44 AM »
crevolution!

Samia

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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2006, 02:27:16 AM »
crevolution!
Quote
:rotfl:
Exactly! The most expressive answer in on word.

bmbmm

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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2006, 02:15:27 AM »
Salam Jankren,

I am Biochemistry and Molecular Biologist. Scientifically evolution is a lie there is no evolution (scientifically!). There is natural selection (eg. if I go out in the rain I will get pissed all over and might catch a cold. If I go to Iraq I will only get shot in the butt?if I am lucky), but natural selection has got nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is a lie because there is not a single molecular-scientific evidence to support it (my challenge). By scientific evidence I mean, to make it simple, the movement of information from Protein>DNA (simple!). This don't happen, it goes DNA>RNA>protein. To say millions of years of mutation leading to the alteration or development of new species is rubbish and totally unscientific! If mutation, by chance for instance, alter my gene for rhodopsin (visual pigment) enabling me to see infrared, how would this information pass on? HOW? If I rely on this sort of vision and it does not pass on to my next generation, then I am dead and hence no evolution!

I challenge anyone, and I have challenged this before: show me an example of a phenotypic-genotypic transition, protein>genomic DNA.  Perhaps Andya should give a try!   

If no one can than I do not want to waste my time to debate on this issue (going round and around in circle).

The main thing driving evolution is the atheist ideology. Give you a good example of Richard Dawkins. Has any body read his book THE GOD DELUTION? Andya, any one..?

Why this damn buda took all the trouble to proof there is no God? I would say yes there is not GOD but Allah! However this dick tried very hard to convince us that there is nothing out there but evolution (not with science as he claims!). He goes further now to apply this theory to the creation of the entire universe.
 

Arnold Yasin

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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2006, 05:10:13 AM »
Peace,

Dear Bmbmm, the idea of Intelligent design was first made by early Muslims. AlKindi and other muslim scientists around the year 1000AD already came up with these ideas after studying plants and finding bones of early humans. In old Europe, 'evolution' was called 'the mohammedan creation theory'. 90% of all books in 1700 Europe were translated Muslim medicine books and ALL promoted Intelligent Design. Darwin's father and grandfather were doctors and so it is impossible that Darwin has not read translated Muslim medicine books, which contained these theories. Intelligent design was highly accepted in the Muslim world till 1400, when a new wave took over Islam that came from Christian fundamentalist origins and they only accepted ex nihilo creation.

AlKindi for example, called prehistoric man, the animal man and believed that we are the khalifah, successor of these species, and called us perfect man, adam. He also gave his observation stating that minerals formed algue, algue developed to higher plant forms, from these snales and others formed, from these fish and insects and these into small animals, these into mammals and then eventualy into humans.

I myself also have studied Biochemistry and specialized in bacteria. And there is much uncertainty in many theories, but the main aim shows a development in the creation. Also after close study, i believe the Quran does not promote ex nihilo creation but an intelligent design, and i believe an emergence design. The Arabic language and message used in the Quran, refers to a development creation in long stages with sudden emergences of species that are the successors of the earlier species. I agree that there are no sufficient theories yet on how proteins developed into DNA, i myself find the Clay Theory very interresting, also because i know that Allah has guided this process of development, and that He can do anything, even creating us out of lifeless material and forming us over 4 billion years. Although there are no convincing theories yet, although the clay theory coincides with the Quran, the Quran does NOT support ex nihilo creation, instant creation, and so you can also not hang on to that.

The Evolution theory was STOLEN from the Muslims and the atheists has twisted its meaning and outcome. To say because atheist promote is enough to reject it, is ignorance.

6:133 "If (God) wills, He destroys you and in your place appoints whom He wills as SUCCESSORS just as He brought you forth from the descendants of other peoples."

76:28 "Indeed, We created them and strenghtened them; and when We willed, replace them completely with peoples like them/of the same kind."

71:14 And He created you in stages/phases.

71:17The divine planner(Allah) has raised you up from the earth in the form of a (geneological) tree.


I can really reccomend anybody this book on the history of intelligent design in muslim history and also a close study on the arabic used:

http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Creation-Perspective-T-O-Shanavas/dp/1413465803/sr=1-1/qid=1162641617/ref=sr_1_1/102-3236160-2648916?ie=UTF8&s=books

Nadeem

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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2006, 05:20:54 AM »
Hi Brother Arnold,

Quote
In old Europe, 'evolution' was called 'the mohammedan creation theory'.


I've searched google many times, but can't find any proof of this. Do you have some links?

Nadeem

Arnold Yasin

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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2006, 05:38:12 AM »
Peace,

You cannot find everyting on the net Nadeem. This old title was used in European medicine books from before 1750, and i doubt you will find any on the web. Also in the history accounts on evolution-theory research, the Muslim history out of racism is ignored. But to give you an idea, i recommend you to research AlKindi's medicine books, and also here is an article on an old muslim evolution scholar:

http://www.tolueislam.com/Bazm/Manzoor/LT_031.htm

He lived around the year 1000AD and already had developed these ideas as others in the Muslim world also. When studying old Muslim School Books from 1200AD, you can see Intelligent Design was one of its given subjects.

Insignia

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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2006, 06:06:00 AM »
Peace Brothers and sisters
A good book on the topic by Dr Maurice Buccaile

I think its the Orgin of Man
or somethin like that

Arnold Yasin

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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2006, 06:58:07 AM »
Complete book "Origin of man" by Maurice Bucaille>> http://www.ymsite.com/books/mb_om/default.htm    :)