Author Topic: The differcence between Rashad Khalifa and the Hislamics regarding the Quran  (Read 7396 times)

AhmedBahgat

  • Guest
Dear Ahmad Bahgat:

Perhaps, I used the word "manipulated" wrongly, since I did not mean to ascribe him intention to manipulate. As you could understand from other statements, I meant his well-intentioned, yet arbitrary calculations.

As for your take on 74:30-31:

Please read the following articles on this topic:

Which One Do You See: Hell or Miracle?
http://19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0

Verses About Signs and Miracles
http://19.org/index.php?id=14,286,0,0,1,0

Peace,
Edip


Thank you brother Edib

I started reading it and will comment here if I have anything to say Inshallah

Take care

AhmedBahgat

  • Guest
Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Dear Ahmad Bahgat:
Perhaps, I used the word "manipulated" wrongly, since I did not mean to ascribe him intention to manipulate. As you could understand from other statements, I meant his well-intentioned, yet arbitrary calculations.

Peace Bro Edib

No mate, you didn?t, you used the perfect word to describe a dishonest man, his intensions were clear from the dodgy criteria he kept changing to work out a multiple of 19, I yet can?t believe that an intelligent man accept these criteria as propounding and logical, it is nothing but a joke if you ask me as a math expert. I have shown many examples in how R K manipulated the Quran words, and if I will discuss all his 19 code I will show hundreds of clear cut examples of manipulations, this will happen bit by bit as we continue our discussion bro

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
As for your take on 74:30-31:

Please read the following articles on this topic:

Which One Do You See: Hell or Miracle?
http://19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0

Thanks bro, let me respond to the paragraphs that I see them relevant to our discussion:

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Which One Do You See: Hell or Miracle?
Edip Y?ksel
 
I know that the title and the subtitle of this article are quite challenging.

Not really bro, it is clear to the naked eye that that 74:31 is talking about Hell, not a miracle, I believe you will prove my point as we go through your article

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
If you have developed an attitude against witnessing the mathematical miracle of the Quran,

Not really that I have attitude to it, in fact long time ago, I almost believed in it, then I decided to investigate it further on my own, no influence from anyone, I have been religiously independent all  my life hence I won?t be biased, that is why you will see accepting things from all Islamic sects, because for me I see  many  rights in every Islamic sect ideology therefore I will be forced to accept any logical point provided by any sect.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
you are justified to get upset with these words and perhaps get little angry.


what makes me angry is not the words used, it is the outcome of the words used, it is the ignorant/arrogant attitude that I see from others when been confronted with compelling Quran evidences and yet they insist on the non sense and false information they promote, it seems to me that they see it as a competition of some sort which is absolutely ridiculous and defeats the whole purpose

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You might have already blinded your eyes and closed your ears with one or more false, contradictory, trivial, or irrelevant excuses, such as:

I?m all ears and I will keep my eyes open, but only if you present logical and truthful info other than than this yes I have to close my ears but after I show where things got wrong

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
1.   God uses literary styles to prove the authenticity of His word; but not mathematics. God is not a mathematician and His word has nothing to do with math.
2.   If Muhammad was not aware of a mathematical miracle in the Quran, then it cannot be true. Muhammad knew everything in the Quran. The knowledge contained in the Quran is limited with Muhammad's knowledge and understanding more than 14 centuries ago.
3.   If I accept a mathematical structure in the Quran based on number 19, then I will be denying two Quranic verses in the end of Chapter 9, and thus would contradict the majority of Muslims and their manuscripts. Besides, I would be contradicting the verses guaranteeing the perfect preservation of the Quran.
4.   Some verses of the Quran are Mutashabih; none can understand their meaning except God. The proponents of 19-based mathematical system in the Quran are indulging in those Mutashabih verses.
5.   The number 19 is heresy, since it is the holy number of Bahai sect.
6.   Though I can balance my check and shop in the stores, I am innumerate when it comes to the 19.
7.   We can find many mathematical phenomena if we spend enough time on any book. For instance, the Bible Code claimed that the distorted translations of the Bible contain impressive coded prophecies.
8.   The Quran cannot contain secrets, mysteries or prophecies; it is a clear book.
9.   What about the previous generations; will they all go to hell?
10.   The claim of a 19-based mathematical code is a mythology.
11.   The claim of a 19-based mathematical code is a magic.
12.   There are many other numbers in the Quran and the number 19 has no special place.
13.   There are problems in the count of letters or words. For instance, the first verse of the Quran does not have 19 letters; it has 18, 20, 21, or 22 letters, but not 19. For instance, the counts of A.L.M. letters have errors.
14.   Part of the numerical claim is based on the Gamatria system (ABJAD), a Jewish fabrication and a deceptive tool used by numerologists and astrologists.
15.   The pronoun "it" in verse 74:30 is feminine and it refers to Hell not the Quran. Thus verse 74:30-31 is about guardians of hell, not a mathematical proof of authenticity.
16.   Even if there is such a code in the Quran it is not important. We need to follow the instruction of the book. We need to focus on how to fight against infidels.
17.   The discoverer of Code 19 claimed to be the messenger of God. He deserved divine retribution. Thus, he was killed in early 1990 by an Al-Qaida affiliate American cult, al-Fuqra, as Al-Qaida's first act in the USA.
18.   If we believe in code 19, then we would end up rejecting holy teachings of Hadith and Sunnah.
19.   Code 19 is a Zionist trick.
20.   I already believe in the Quran and I do not need miracles.
21.   I believe in the Quran because its message is true.
22.   I believe in the Quran because it does not contain contradictions.
23.   I believe in the Quran on blind faith and I do not need any reason for my belief.
24.   And, many more excuses, reasons or lack of them...

Thank bro for making up all these excuses, a huge list to be honest, but I see the above is irrelevant to my argument presented in my comment above regarding 74:31, what I would have preferred bto that you hit straight on the nail and refute my claims in my comment, straight to the point dear bro please.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
I will deal with all these excuses, and God willing, I will respond each of them one by one;

I actually read all this article and could not see where you responded to each one of the above 24 excuses as you claimed you will respond to each one with God?s willings

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
but first thing first:
Whatever are your EXCUSES or REASONS to ignore, reject, or ridicule the number 19, this article will expose your true intentions, which you might be trying to hide even from yourself (11:5).


Great man, I hope the info presented has merit, logical and easy to follow and understand, also bro I don?t think 11:5 is confirning your propostion that the 19 code rejectors are trying to hide from themselves, we are trying to understand indeed why the code 19 advocates are insisting on something that never complete and full of contradictions and non sesne

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
If you are claiming to believe in the Quran, and after reading this article still continue ignoring or ridiculing the mathematical code of the Quran, you will be TORMENTED all your life by repeatedly witnessing an exciting fact and losing its sight afterwards,

Bro, please be reasonable, it is like after reading this article we only have one option which to accept it, sure mate if it makes sense I won?t be shy to accept it, but would you have ever considered yourself that you are on the wrong track regarding code 19?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
like a person who witnesses succeeding events of lightning in the darkness (2:17-20). You will neither appreciate nor comprehend the miracle,

Again mate, I don?t understand what 2:17-20 has to do with code 19 rejectors?, in fact 2:17-20 is talking about the confused believers, and to be honest you can?t say they are confused because they rejected a theory that its flavour is nothing but confusion and non sense

Quote from: Edip Yuksel

nor will you be satisfied with your denial.

How can you k now that bro?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You will perpetually oscillate between momentary belief end prolonged disbelief, between private doubt and public denial. You will be doomed to SAQAR here and in the hereafter.

So you say Saqar means something else?, well,  we will see how strong the evidences you will provide

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
But, if you have faith and gained some goodness in your faith, then this article, by God's will, may wake you up from ignorance, and may change your paradigm (6:158).

I hope so bro, but don?t you think that the above apply on both the code rejectors and advocates?, also mate you keep giving credit to your article before even you started to discuss the issues, you are not selling a product here man, you are only obliged to show logic, so please keep the emotions aside

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You will never be the same; you will be among the progressives (74:30-37).

Sorry, what progressives has to do with 74:30-37?, I would really appreciate if you direct a comment to me backed up by Quran verses that you Quote the words of the verse and show me how it is backing up your point, it will make it easy for all parties bro, I hardly give a Quran reference without quoting the verses and walking thought word by word to prove my point and this is what asked you really which is to discuss 74:31 word by words with me, now I see myself forced to read and respond to a lot of things that are not relevant to our discussion, most of what you say is emotionally motivated and noot logical whatsoever bro

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You will be one of the few who are blessed by God to witness one of the greatest miracles.

Bro, I witnessed zillions of the greatest miracles of Allah, everyday indeed I see hundreds and hundreds, I?m not unique here, all humans see the exact same, Allah told us many times in the Quran clearly and explicitly about His miracles ?te human creation for example is one of those miracles? but He never said  that code 19 in the Quran is a miracle, only R K invented that and associated it to Allah.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You will be sure about your faith, a faith not based on self-deceptive claims,

Again the self deceptive claims apply to both the code rejectors and advoacates.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
on conformity with a religious group, or on blind faith, or wishful thinking;

well, if I tell that, would you believe me? :
1)   I don?t belong to any religious group
2)   I was never raised as a Muslim, I was only born one
3)   To be honest bro I have two wishful religiously related thinking only, one is impossible to happen, which is if given the choice again to carry the Amanah, I will surely decline to carry it, the second wishful thinking bro is simply when I die, I wish Allah is pleased with me, other than this man I absolutely have no other religious wishful thinking

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
but a faith based on knowledge gathered from empirical and rational evidence corroborated by spiritual experience (41:53; 74:31).

Good, that is what I?m here for, to share that knowledge and hopefully learn new logical and well founded Quran insights. However bro, I don?t see 41:53 related in any way, why you are trying to make them related?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You will experience God's presence in your life and attain happiness promised to believers and submitters (9:124; 10:64; 16:89).

Thanks to  Allah, I do feel that already and makes me one of the happiest humans yet still worried and horrified from His mighty power that He can inflict bad things on me at any time without warning and I have to submit and not question His actions against me.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You will dedicate all your life to serve God alone without remorse or fear (2:62; 3:170; 10:62; 46:13).

Great however we need to continue fearing Him and never say what we don?t know about Him, it is Haram to say things about Allah that we don?t know, do you agree with that?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel

You will understand many Quranic verses that had not much meaning for you (2:1,108).

Mate regarding the initials verses, they only constitute unde 0.343 % of the Quran, how big deal that is man, come on bro give me a break will ya?, why we need to understand these verses if 3:7 clearly told us that there are verses that only Allah will the be One who knows what they mean?

Please respond to 3:7 logically because this is a great hurdle for you to overcome before you start prmoting that we should know every verses in the Quran

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Every time you see an unappreciative disbeliever denying or mocking the 19-based system,

I believe you mean a disbelieve in the code NOT a disbeliever in Allah, right?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
your knowledge-based faith will be justified. And the more people do not see what you and few others have witnessed will increase the importance, power and the wonder of the prophetic description of 74:31 in your mind. You will attain certainty (74:31; 27:1-3; 2:260; 13:2; 2:118; 45:20). However, witnessing this miracle will also put some responsibility on you (5:115; 47:25).

I have to skip all the above until you walk me through the verses and show me how they fit within your dialogue instead of just reference numbers, this is not professional bro, please don?t be lazy

AhmedBahgat

  • Guest
Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Let's start from the translation of verses 21-37 of chapter 74, The Hidden One:

Great, that is what I was waiting for patiently, now I will start by saying that why you are taking the name of the sura ?Al Muddathir? that serious?, I thought that the Quran was revealed without any sura names, right?, I thought the sura names is a sunni invention, right?, anyway let?s assume that the sura name was revealed and is part of the Quran, the name is clearly referring to prophet Mohammad, who was hiding his message for the first 3 years and this is the clear order from Allah to him to start spreading the message publicly and not in hiding any more, let?s look at the first few verses:

1: O thou enveloped in thy cloak

2: Arise and deliver thy warning!
 
3: And thy Lord do thou magnify!

4: And your garments do purify,
 
5: And uncleanness do shun,

6: And show not favour, seeking worldly gain!

7: But, for thy Lord's (Cause), be patient! 

[The Quran ; 1-7]

بِسْمِ اللّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ
 يَا أَيُّهَا الْمُدَّثِّرُ (1)
 قُمْ فَأَنذِرْ (2)
 وَرَبَّكَ فَكَبِّرْ (3)
 وَثِيَابَكَ فَطَهِّرْ (4)
 وَالرُّجْزَ فَاهْجُرْ (5)
 وَلَا تَمْنُن تَسْتَكْثِرُ (6)
 وَلِرَبِّكَ فَاصْبِرْ (7)

-> Now before I start navigating through your comment regarding sura 74, I really don?t understand what di you want to imply who is ?the Muddathir?, ?The Hidden?, is it R K or is it code 19?

I will not respond to R K choice as a possible reply from you until you confirm it however for the possible reply that the Hidden is code 19, it is clear from verses 74:1-7 that it can?t be because of the following:

a)   Allah is talking to that thing called ?The Hidden?, 74:1
b)   Allah is ordering that thing called ?The Hidden? to arise and deliver thy warning!, 74:2
c)   Allah is ordering that thing called ?The Hidden? to magnify  thy Lord, 74:3
d)   That thing called ?The Hidden? has cloths, and an order was given to keep that cloths clean, 74:4
e)   That thing called ?The Hidden? was ordered to shun the uncleanness, 74:5
f)   That thing called ?The Hidden? was ordered to show not favour to people in power, seeking worldly gain, 74:6
g)   That thing called ?The Hidden? was ordered to be patient  for thy Lord's (Cause),  74:7

Therefore ?The Muddathir? can?t be code 19, it is more plausible to be a human therefore it is either Mohammad or R K or any other human for that matter to be accurate.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:21 He looked.

74:22 He frowned and scowled.

74:23 Then he turned away arrogantly.

74:24 He said, "This is but an impressive illusion/magic!"

74:25 "This is human made."

74:26 I will cast him into SAQAR!

74:27 And what will explain to you what the SAQAR is?

74:28 It leaves nothing, it lets nothing (NOT MORE, NOT LESS; PRECISE; PERFECT);

74:29 VISIBLE (LAWAHATUN) to PEOPLE (BASHAR) (universal)!

74:30 On it is Nineteen.

74:31 As guardians of fire we appointed none except angels, and we assigned their number (1) to torment the unappreciative disbelievers, (2) to convince People of the Book, (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of People of the Book, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who have disease in their hearts, and the unappreciative disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills (or, whoever wills), and guides whomever He wills (or, whoever wills). None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. IT (HIYA) is a reminder for the people.

74:32 Indeed, by the Moon.

74:33 By the night as it passes.

74:34 And the morning as it shines.

74:35 This (NUMBER) is one of the GREATEST (KUBRA).

74:36 A WARNING (NAZEER) for the PEOPLE (BASHAR).

74:37 For those who want to progress or regress.

Let me bring the Arabic verses in here so I can follow you:

 ثُمَّ نَظَرَ (21)
 ثُمَّ عَبَسَ وَبَسَرَ (22)
 ثُمَّ أَدْبَرَ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ (23)
 فَقَالَ إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ يُؤْثَرُ (24)
 إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا قَوْلُ الْبَشَرِ (25)
 سَأُصْلِيهِ سَقَرَ (26)
 وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا سَقَرُ (27)
 لَا تُبْقِي وَلَا تَذَرُ (28)
 لَوَّاحَةٌ لِّلْبَشَرِ (29)
 عَلَيْهَا تِسْعَةَ عَشَرَ (30)
 وَمَا جَعَلْنَا أَصْحَابَ النَّارِ إِلَّا مَلَائِكَةً وَمَا جَعَلْنَا عِدَّتَهُمْ إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِيَسْتَيْقِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَيَزْدَادَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِيمَانًا وَلَا يَرْتَابَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَلِيَقُولَ الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ وَالْكَافِرُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَذَا مَثَلًا كَذَلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشَاء وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَى لِلْبَشَرِ (31)
 كَلَّا وَالْقَمَرِ (32)
 وَاللَّيْلِ إِذْ أَدْبَرَ (33)
 وَالصُّبْحِ إِذَا أَسْفَرَ (34)
 إِنَّهَا لَإِحْدَى الْكُبَرِ (35)
 نَذِيرًا لِّلْبَشَرِ (36)
 لِمَن شَاء مِنكُمْ أَن يَتَقَدَّمَ أَوْ يَتَأَخَّرَ (37)

[The Quran ; 74:21-37]

AhmedBahgat

  • Guest
I believe you are using RK translation so I will need to respond to each verse(74:21-37),  however before I go through your walkthrough I have to bring the other verses 74:8-20 that were not discussed by me yet, I only discussed 74:1-7 and clearly proved that ?The Hidden? is a human not code 19, so it will be more proper on my side to discuss 74:8-20 before I move to 74:21-37,

8: Finally, when the Trumpet is sounded,

9: That, at that time, shall be a difficult day,
.
10: For the unbelievers, anything but easy.

11: Leave Me and him whom I created alone,

12: And give him vast riches,

13: And sons dwelling in his presence,

14: And made (life) smooth for him. 

15: And yet he desires that I should add more!

16: By no means! surely he offers opposition to Our communications.

17: On him I shall impose a fearful doom.

18: For he thought and he plotted;-

19: But may he be cursed how he plotted;

20: Again, may he be cursed how he plotted;

[The Quran ; 8-20]

 فَإِذَا نُقِرَ فِي النَّاقُورِ (8)
 فَذَلِكَ يَوْمَئِذٍ يَوْمٌ عَسِيرٌ (9)
 عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ غَيْرُ يَسِيرٍ (10)
 ذَرْنِي وَمَنْ خَلَقْتُ وَحِيدًا (11)
 وَجَعَلْتُ لَهُ مَالًا مَّمْدُودًا (12)
 وَبَنِينَ شُهُودًا (13)
 وَمَهَّدتُّ لَهُ تَمْهِيدًا (14)
 ثُمَّ يَطْمَعُ أَنْ أَزِيدَ (15)
 كَلَّا إِنَّهُ كَانَ لِآيَاتِنَا عَنِيدًا (16)
 سَأُرْهِقُهُ صَعُودًا (17)
 إِنَّهُ فَكَّرَ وَقَدَّرَ (18)
 فَقُتِلَ كَيْفَ قَدَّرَ (19)
 ثُمَّ قُتِلَ كَيْفَ قَدَّرَ (20)

-> We clearly see that Allah moved from talking to the Muddathir to talking about the J D all of a sudden, there is actually a link because that Muddathir was ordered to arise and deliver the warning 74:2 and surely most of the Quran warnings are warnings regarding the very distressful J D, the verses started by the sign of the J D ?8: Finally, when the Trumpet is sounded,?, then a confirmation how distressful that day will be ?8: That, at that time, shall be a difficult day,?, for the unbelievers it will be anything but easy,?10: For the unbelievers, anything but easy.?, then the account ?11: Leave Me and him whom I created alone, ?, many of those who will give account on that distressful day were given a very comfortable life during the test and yet they failed:?12: And give him vast riches,?, ?13: And sons dwelling in his presence,?, ?14: And made (life) smooth for him.? and yet they were asking for more blessings :?15: And yet he desires that I should add more!?,  they still asked for more despite all these blessings and  most importantly despite their clear arrogance against the message sent by Allah:?16: By no means! surely he offers opposition to Our communications.?, and now it is the time to pay the dues :?17: On him I shall impose a fearful doom. ?, this is because whatever they thought and plotted :?18: For he thought and he plotted;-? is cursed :?19: But may he be cursed how he plotted; ? and sure it is cursed :?20: Again, may he be cursed how he plotted;?

-> I guess the verses at least are talking about the unbelievers who were given a lot of money and never sought money from others. Regardless of that, the verses are clearly talking about the J D, the account that will be given then the failure of many on that day that were given a very comfortable earthy life,

-> Clearly 74:1-20 have nothing to do with any codes whatsoever. 

Back to 74:21-37, let me bring the translation you are using and see how accurate it is from my perspective:

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:21 He looked.

That is the rich unbeliever Allah was talking about in 74:11-20

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:22 He frowned and scowled.

The same guy of course

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:23 Then he turned away arrogantly.

Ignoring the message of course

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:24 He said, "This is but an impressive illusion/magic!"

To what Mohammad was delivering of course

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:25 "This is human made."

Again, the above was said against the divine words Mohammad was delivering

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:26 I will cast him into SAQAR!

Here we go, so you say SAQAR means something else, sort of in the mind?, well, SAQAR actually does not mean Jahannam as a whole, it will be illogical to take it as such, in fact it should mean part or a section in Jahannam, we know that Jahannam has 7 gates and for each a certain group will enter, therefore it is more proper to take SAQAR as one of these 7 sections of Hell, in fact Allah has told us about other sections of those 7 sections if not all of them as far as I believe, I will need to confirm that later,  here is 5 verses that talk about another section of those 7 sections of hell called ?Al Hotamah?, and you can see clearly how these verses about ?Al Hotamah? rims almost identically context wise with 74:26-30,

4: Nay! he shall most certainly be hurled into the crushing disaster (Al Hotamah),

5: And what will make you realize what the crushing disaster (Al Hotamah) is?

6: It is the fire kindled by Allah,

7 : Which rises above the hearts.

8: Surely it shall be closed over upon them,

[The Quran ; 104:4-8]

 كَلَّا لَيُنبَذَنَّ فِي الْحُطَمَةِ (4)
 وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا الْحُطَمَةُ (5)
 نَارُ اللَّهِ الْمُوقَدَةُ (6)
 الَّتِي تَطَّلِعُ عَلَى الْأَفْئِدَةِ (7)
 إِنَّهَا عَلَيْهِم مُّؤْصَدَةٌ (8)

-> Compare these 5 verses with 74:26-30 and you get the sense that Allah is talking about almost the same thing, both SAQAR and Al Hotoamah must be almost the same thing because both are sections of the seven sections of Hell.

 
Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:27 And what will explain to you what the SAQAR is?

Almost identical verse to 104:5, here both under each other in Arabic:
? وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا سَقَرُ? [The Quran 74:27]
?  وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا الْحُطَمَةُ? [The Quran 104:5]

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:28 It leaves nothing, it lets nothing (NOT MORE, NOT LESS; PRECISE; PERFECT);

Sorry bro, what is that you want to stress between the brackets?,  74:28 actually means that the fire in the hell section named SAQAR leaves nothing and let?s nothing ? لَا تُبْقِي وَلَا تَذَرُ?.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:29 VISIBLE (LAWAHATUN) to PEOPLE (BASHAR) (universal)!

Bro the word ?LAWAHATUN? has nothing to do with visibility in fact fire can be LAWAHATUN ?Scorching? and we will feel it without seeing it, it is like a very hot day bro in Dubbai, like 50 C and this is what LAWAHTUN means

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:30 On it is Nineteen.

Yep 19 guards to force the hell punishment, therefore SAQAR which is a section in hell is guarded by 19 angels

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:31 As guardians of fire we appointed none except angels, and we assigned their number (1) to torment the unappreciative disbelievers, (2) to convince People of the Book, (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of People of the Book, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who have disease in their hearts, and the unappreciative disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills (or, whoever wills), and guides whomever He wills (or, whoever wills). None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. IT (HIYA) is a reminder for the people.

The above translation you are insisting on is 100% flawed, here is why again:

The words that R K NEVER TRANSLATED are bolded, here is what he has done

1. he didn?t translate  the word ? إِلَّا?,?ILLA?, ?only/but/except?,which stands in front of the word ? فِتْنَةً     ?,?FITNA?

2. he inserted numbering as seen in his translation

3. he translated the word ? فِتْنَةً ?,?FITNA?, that is actually a noun as a verb ?to disturb?.

4. he inserted IN FRONT OF the word ? فِتْنَةً ?,?FITNA?, the  word "to?. ?li", however, "to" comes ONLY AFTER "fitna for disbelievers", ? إِلَّا فِتْنَةً لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا?

5. he omitted a ?waw/and?, between the 2nd and the 3rd function and between the 3rd and the 4th function, ? كَفَرُوا لِيَسْتَيْقِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَيَزْدَادَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِيمَانًا وَلَا يَرْتَابَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ?, this was very deceitful indeed, it looked as if the English language controlled the ?AND? for combining  5 functions to give the impressions that the verse is talking about 5 functions that are served by the number 19.

He has done his best TO GIVE AN IMPRESSION that "but a fitna for disbelievers" is ?only one? out of five functions of "the angels number?.

While in Arabic the verse says that "but a fitna for those who disbelieve(d)" is the ONLY FUNCTION of "the angel number?,  all other functions/things mentioned in the verse will be a result of a fitna that is caused by their number, that is,  their number being made but a fitna for those who disbelieved will cause 4 functions.

This is why Piktchal put a semicolon after words "but a fitna for disbelievers;" and between the 2nd and 3rd function, according to Piktchal there is no colon nor semicolon, but there is conjunction waw/and.
for the same purpose RK omitted conjunctions waw/and between 2nd and 3rd function and between 3rd and 4th function cause in original Arabic there is no conjunction waw/and between his alleged 1st and 2nd function(to make it looks as only one out of five functions), see how one letter debunked R K invention?

If there was conjunction waw/and after words "but a fitna for disbelievers", only then it be possible to count "attaining certainty and increasing faith etc" mentioned in the verse as equal functions of their number, together with its function of being "but a fitna for those who disbelieve"

It is obvious that listing does not starts by fitna, but by "that those who are given the book attain certainty"?etc, their number is not made but a fitna, and then(!) comes word "to/that"- to/that:

1.those who are given the book attain certainty,

2.those who believe to increase faith

.
etc

AhmedBahgat

  • Guest
it is very clear that "but a fitna for disbelievers" is the MAIN and only function of No 19 and not first of five, listing starts after those words and not before them, that is, all functions listed after words "fitna for those who disbelieve" are not caused by their number itself but by their number being but a fitna/punishment (in hereafter) for those who disbelieve.

This is what verse says in Arabic, this is natural reading and is obvious fact, EXCEPT in the case if someone is confused and heavily influenced with preconceived idea of existing a consistent miraculous code  of 19 divisibility in the quran.

His translation is too distorted and it hardly convey the meaning of the verse, the verse says that FITNA for those who disbelieve is the prime, main and the ONLY FUNCTION of "the hell angel number". All other "functions/things mentioned in the verse are result of their number being fitna/punishment/torment. ?We have NOT made their number - BUT a fitna for those who disbelieve; that??

So it is not their number itself that will do the job of convincing, but their number being nothing "BUT A FITNA/punishment/torment for those who disbelieve (in hereafter)" will do the job of convincing/getting certainty and increasing iman of the people in this world), 19 angels being but a torment/punishment for disbelievers in hell will do the job and not No 19 itself and not code 19:

Their number being but a fitna/punishment/torment for "those who disbelieved" refers to the hereafter, and functions listen after "their number being but a fitna" refers to this world.


19 angels of hell fire is a description/example/symbol of torturing in hell fire- one of the main quranic concepts that was detailed in it, and according to the Quran - quranic doctrines are of use to people...they increases faith and help to people get to certainty and help them to avoid/stop falling in doubts.

19 stern and severe guardians/employees in hell who perform torment, 19 angels will do the job of increasing and not the code., i.e. the believers knows that there will be stern angels (regardless of their number) that will punish those who disbelieve, this in effect will make their faith increase. There is no question that reading Allahs verses=>fearing of fire and its angels=> avoiding evil and following quran and reading quran=> increasing in faith

Quran is full of warnings with hell fire as one of main doctrines of Quran...And Quran itself is called ZIKR/warning/reminder .... Nearly, you can not find a single page of Quran without mention of THIS WARNING AND ADMONITION- the hell fire... People are warned/reminded in Quran to save themselves from the fire UPON IT (are)MALAIKAH- strong and severe who are never hesitate from performing any commands of their Lord(punishing and torturing of disbelievers in hell.

So Malaikah and their number are but a description as all other hell descriptions in the Quran and means and example of torturing in hell fire, what is the most important  such quranic warnings according to the Quran have power to increase faith of believers and have a power to increase in people awareness of hereafter and all the truths and purposes of their lives, and to help the people(who read about these warnings in Allah`s book, and who "believe" in it, but are not convinced and are not on level of certainty) to attain certainty that Allah exist. Fearing of the punishment in hereafter force, to be just , to read Quran, to learn, to strive in Allahs path and to obey Allah commands in Quran and acting that way they attain certainty and increase their faith...and are prevented from falling in doubts... Does not reading of Quran ITSELF and its warnings,morals,lessons, messages, wisdoms have CONVINCING power?
 
Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:32 Indeed, by the Moon.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:33 By the night as it passes.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:34 And the morning as it shines.

All the above is fine, Allah is swearing with 3 miracles that we see every day that:

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:35 This (NUMBER) is one of the GREATEST (KUBRA).

Why did you add the word (NUMBER) in the translation bro?, the word does not appear in the Arabic verse, here it is: ? إِنَّهَا لَإِحْدَى الْكُبَرِ?, if the verse is talking about a number which is masculine then it should be : ? انه لَإِحْدَى الْكُبَرِ?, can you spot the difference, therefore it has to be about SAQAR or its Fitnah, which is one of the 7 sections in Hell and obviously Allah referred to SAQAR in  feminine form as we saw from the feminine forms ? لَوَّاحَةٌ?, ?Lawaha?, ? تُبْقِي?, ?Tubqi?, ? تَذَرُ?, ?Tazir?, ? عَلَيْهَا?, ?Alaiha?

If 74:35 is talking about a number then all the above words must be masculine which is not the case, if it was talking about it as a miracle of code 19 then the whole sura won?t make sense unless severe manipulations to vital  Arabic words are injected into the context and that is what R K did exactly

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:36 A WARNING (NAZEER) for the PEOPLE (BASHAR).

Yes that is what makes sense, warning us about SAQAR is what has to be done according to the order given to the prophet in 74:2, to arise and warn the people.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:37 For those who want to progress or regress.

Exactly

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Though the function of 19 is listed in Chapter 74, Muddassir (The Hidden One), its implication and fulfillment was kept hidden according to God's will as the Quran's secret for 19x74 lunar years after its revelation to Muhammad.


Really?, however the above it total non  sense because you need to explain the following first:

a)   Allah is talking to that thing called ?The Hidden?, 74:1
b)   Allah is ordering that thing called ?The Hidden? to arise and deliver thy warning!, 74:2
c)   Allah is ordering that thing called ?The Hidden? to magnify  thy Lord, 74:3
d)   That thing called ?The Hidden? has cloths, and an order was given to keep that cloths clean, 74:4
e)   That thing called ?The Hidden? was ordered to shun the uncleanness, 74:5
f)   That thing called ?The Hidden? was ordered to show not favour to people in power, seeking worldly gain, 74:6
g)   That thing called ?The Hidden? was ordered to be patient  for thy Lord's (Cause),  74:7

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
However, the All-wise God, unveiled this secret via a monotheist scientist in 1974,

LOL bro, why He has done that, I guess someone like you who tends to explain every action Allah makes should have a go at it, haven?t you asked yourself that question before?, again you need to explain the following if the Hidden as you explain means the secret about code 19:

a)   Allah is talking to that thing called ?The Hidden?, 74:1
b)   Allah is ordering that thing called ?The Hidden? to arise and deliver thy warning!, 74:2
c)   Allah is ordering that thing called ?The Hidden? to magnify  thy Lord, 74:3
d)   That thing called ?The Hidden? has cloths, and an order was given to keep that cloths clean, 74:4
e)   That thing called ?The Hidden? was ordered to shun the uncleanness, 74:5
f)   That thing called ?The Hidden? was ordered to show not favour to people in power, seeking worldly gain, 74:6
g)   That thing called ?The Hidden? was ordered to be patient  for thy Lord's (Cause),  74:7

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
according to the most commonly used calendar, a calendar allegedly based on the birth of Jesus, which is considered a holy day and the sign of the End (19:15). As a result, the number 19, as the miraculous code of the Quran and the Bible strengthened and continue to strengthen the faith of believers, removed and continue to remove doubts in the heart of people of the book, and intellectually tormented and continue to torment hypocrites and unappreciative disbelievers.

Absolutely irrelevant and makes no sense to me. I guess I?m misguided by Allah don?t you reckon?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Now let's first discuss the words written in CAPITAL letters in the translation of the verses above. Then, we will discuss each of the popular excuses used by the unappreciative disbelievers of the miracle 19.

I have to say, yeh bro, please let?s get into it please.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
We should understand the meaning of these words by first referring to their usage in the Quran.

I agree

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Their immediate context as well as their use in other verses is usually sufficient to illuminate their meanings.

I agree, but you can?t drop the common sense bro, so if the word has more than one meaning then the context and the common sense must control the meaning

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
For believers who have been lucky to witness this great miracle,


LUCKY, hmmmmm, ok I guess it is all about luck then and those who lived from year 570 and died before 1974 were not so lucky hey?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
the meaning of the verses above is good news;

of course it is  because when you warn someone of any punishment it has to be good news because that person has a chance now to avoid that punishment

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
it gives them hope, enlightens them, informs them, and turns their faith from wishful thinking or conjecture to knowledge-based faith. Thus, the rhetorical value of these verses is very high for believers:

You keep saying wishful thinking without saying what it is exactly, can you please help me out because it seems I belong to those with wishful thinking as you claim?

And I agree with you that rhetorical value of these verses is very high for believers but only if they don?t manipulate it and if they do then they are not believers any more, we also have seen in 74:31 that the fitnah (the punishment) is only directed at the  unbelievers NOT the believers

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:27 ---> SAQAR (saqar, to be defined by the following verses)

Sure, let?s see what you have to say:

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:28 ---> (NOT MORE, NOT LESS; PRECISE; PERFECT);

Absolute non sense, 74:28 means anyone who enters SAQAR will be tormented and  it won?t leave or let him/her

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:29 ---> LAWAHA (obvious; visible; tablet; screen)

Another clear cut non sense that only shows either ignorance or deliberate manipulation to the word ?Lawahah?, to link it to the other word ?Alwah?, ?Tablets? makes me laugh indeed, again it is only based on the flawed method of the 3 letters root that always makes different words the bloody same, what non sense is that?, why then we drive different words with different letters from the first place.

Lawahah has nothing to do with visibility in fact it only relates to feeling the heat without seeing it, like a very hot day in summer and the Arabs use this expression commonly to refer to scorching heat

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:29 ---> BASHAR (humans; people)

I agree

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:31 ---> HIYA (it; reference to the number 19)

Absolutely non sense because the number 19 is masculine ?ADAD? and ?HIYA? is feminine. In fact ?HIYA? is referring to the feminine word ?Fitnah?, ?Punishment?, mentioned earlier in the same verse.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:31 ---> ZIKRA (reminder; message)

I agree.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:35 ---> HA (it; referring to the number 19)

Sorry, this is absolutely non sense again because the damir ?HA? is feminine and number 19 is masculine ?ADAD?, the ??HA? is referring to SAQAR or its Fitnah and both are feminine

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:35 ---> KUBRA (great miracles)

A clear cut case of manipulation indeed, ?KUBRA? means ?BIG?, and the word miracle was never mentioned in the Arabic verse, the verse only means that what we are warned about ?SAQAR? is something very big that should take our attention or even it can be taken 100% literal that SAQAR is a huge fire based on the following verse:

Who shall enter the big fire;

[The Quran ; 87:12]

 الَّذِي يَصْلَى النَّارَ الْكُبْرَى (12)


Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:36 ---> NEZEER (warner to be embraced and supported)

I agree, but I just don?t understand what you put in the brackets really, it seems you are trying hard to refer indirectly to R K, however R K didn?t warn us from anything new, all the things he said were delivered more than 1400 years ago so he can?t be a warner really unless you consider that not believing in code 19 is a warning that will earn its followers hell?, which is ridiculous because there are millions who accept the Quran without the need of any miracle whatsoever and again Allah never mentioned that made up code directly in the Quran as a requirement for the belief. Total rubbish you are promoting man

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
On the other hand, those who have deprived themselves from witnessing the miracle 19 because of their ill intentions or their dogmatic rejection try hard to render these key words incompatible with the semantic context of the Quran. They conceive God of the Quran as an angry and despotic God who is not able provide any reasonable argument against those who question the Quran's authenticity, but only resorts to intimidation: "I will burn you in hell!!!" The God they depict has double standard: He asks the disbelievers to bring their evidence for their argument (2:111; 11:17; 21:24; 27:64; 28:75; 35:40) but for His argument He only wants to scare them! The opponents of 19-based miracle, by distorting the meaning of the words in these verses, manage to blind themselves to one of the most profound philosophical and theological arguments and evidences in history. Not only they divert themselves from the right path they try to divert others too (6:25-26; 22:3; 41:83).

Too emotional bro and it will be a total waste of my time and yours to respond to the above, sorry

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Thus, the understanding (more accurately, the misunderstanding) of those who cannot appreciate God as He should be (6:90-91), the argument for Quran's authenticity is scorching, burning, dark, hellish, misfortune, disastrous, and scary. Thus, in the minds of opponents of miracle 19, the rhetorical value of these verses is simply a threat to burn and torture:

Of course it is a warning from a horrifying threat, it can?t be anything else and in fact this is the main theme of the Quran so you have a lot of verses to manipulate bro to prove to us that they don?t mean scorching, burning, dark, hellish, misfortune, disastrous, and scary

Let?s see how accurate the following understanding us from my perspective:

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:27 ---> SAQAR (hell-fire)

Wrong, because SAQAR is only one section out of the 7 sections in the hell-fire, so it can?t be the whole hell-fire

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:28 ---> (NEITHER LEAVES THE FLESH NOR THE BONES; DESTROYS CONTINUALLY);


Sort of, but I see it means more that it won?t leave them or let them go, i.e. they will be imprisoned in it

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:29 ---> LAWAHA (scorching; burning; shriveling)

I agree

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:29 ---> BASHAR (skin)

Wrong, because Bashar means ?mankind?, or roughly ?the people?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:31 ---> HIYA (it; referring to hell-fire)

Wrong, because HIYA is referring to SAQAR which is only part of the hell-fire

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:31 ---> ZIKRA (news of disaster)

Sort of, it means reminder to be accurate

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:35 ---> HA (it; referring to hell-fire

Wrong, because the feminine damir HA is referring to SAQAR or its Ftinah

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:35 ---> KUBRA (great punishment; gravest misfortune; dire scourge)

Wrong, it only means ?BIG? the word punishment does not exist, however I accept that ?BIG? can also means ?GREAT?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
74:36 ---> NAZEER (warning to be escaped)

It only means a warning carried by a warner who was Mohammad because He informed us about SAQAR and explained it to us in details.

AhmedBahgat

  • Guest
Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Now let's one by one discuss each of these words, which were widely and perhaps JUSTIFIABLY misunderstood by pre-1974 generations, and yet are intentionally distorted by the post-1974 opponents of one of the greatest miracles.
 
DOES "SAQAR" IN 74:27 MEAN HELL OR SOMETHING ELSE?
Though prominent Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan-ul Arab and specialized dictionaries such as Mufradat Fi Gharib-il Quran acknowledge that the word might be of foreign origin with no Arabic derivatives, these and other dictionaries and commentaries of the Quran do not hesitate defining it as hell or heat radiating from Sun. Lisan-ul Arab refers to a Hadith which uses a bizarre derivative of the word Saqar to mean "liars". The word SaQaR is mentioned four times in the Quran, three times in Chapter 74 and once in 54:48. In the later one, the word SaQaR is used in a statement warning that when criminals will be dragged to the fire they will be told: "taste the touch of Saqar". From this verse one might infer that Saqar is another word for fire; but a better inference is that Saqar is a negative feeling or state of mind one tastes after being committed to the divine punishment. In this case, there is no reason to think that this negative state of mind could not be obtained from experiences other than fire.

So in all locations the word SAQAR was used to indicate hell-fire and you want to use it in different context that it is a state of mind, hmmmmm then you need to explain to us how 19 angels will be on top of that state of mind, and how that state of mind will be ?Lawahah? ?Visible (as you claim)? to the ?Bashar?,  ?the people while it is a bloody state of mind?, total non sense bro

Now to answer the heading, the word SAQAR means one of the 7 sections of Hell

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
The Arabic word for hell is GaHyM or GaHaNnaM. The word NAR (Fire), though not a specific name for hell, is also frequently used to denote the same phenomenon. However, the word NAR (fire) is also used in its literal meaning, which is simply fire. For instance, verses 20:10-14 describe God's communication with Moses through fire. Obviously, this fire in the holy land where God spoke through cannot be the Hell.

The Arabic word for hell is Gahannam. I don?t know where you got GaHyM from?,

Your  argument using the fire is very weak and I have to ignore it, sorry

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Similarly, the word SaQaR does not necessarily mean hell.


Of course SAQAR does not mean hell, becase it is only a section of the seven sections of hell.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
In fact, the semantic connection of SaQaR with hell is allegorical, since SaQaR is a descriptive word derived from the verb SaQaRa rather than a noun like GaHYM, GaHaNnaM.

Absolutely non  sense, names has nothing to do with verbs neither roots neither meanings, IT IS JUST A BLOODY NAME, like my name and yours

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
In any case, the verse 74:27 does not ask nor expect us to rush into defining the meaning of this word, which it appears to be its first usage in the Quran. We are warned against rushing to define Quranic words or attempting to preempt the Quranic definition by prematurely assigning a meaning to a verse before considering its immediate or Quranic context or fulfillment (20:114; 75:16-19). Doing so is a sign of pretension and arrogance. Since the word is rarely used in the Quran (total four and three of them is in this chapter) and this verse is most likely the first usage of this rare word, it is more appropriate to wait the Quran explain the word. In brief, rushing to limit/define the meaning of the word Saqar in the verse "Do you know what SaQaR is?" is a disrespectful act against the Quran. When the Quran asks "Do you know what X means?" it does not want us to try to understand the meaning of X in the very question about its meaning! It is a rhetorical question. God wants to pull your attention to its modified or new meaning. The Quran uses this question 13 times either to modify the meaning of an already used word or to add another nuance (See: 69:3; 74:27; 77:14; 82:17-18; 83:8, 19; 86:2; 90:12; 97:2; 101:3, 10; 104:5).

Bro, I?m tired of your weak and non reasonable arguments, I have to skip the above as well

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Nevertheless, we see that almost all commentators or translators of the Quran have rushed to translate SaQaR as Hell or Fire:


Yusuf Ali: "Soon I will cast him into Hell-Fire!"
Marmaduke Pickthall: "Him shall I fling unto the burning."
T.B. Irving: "I'll roast him by scorching!"
M. H. Shakir: "I will cast him into Hell."
MaulaHUM Muhammad Ali: "I will cast him into hell."
N. J. Dawood: "I will surely cast him to the fire of Hell. "
Muhammad Asad: "[Hence,] I shall cause him to endure hell-fire [in the life to come]!"
Rashad Khalifa: "I will commit him to retribution"

So?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
As you see, none leave the word SaQaR as it is.

They all wrong indeed, because Saqar is only a section out of the seven sections of hell

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
However, Rashad Khalifa, as the one who was chosen to fulfill this great prophecy, renders the word SaQar accurately by translating it with a general word, "retribution." Yasar Nuri Ozturk, a Turkish theology professor, in his post-1974 translation of the Quran, translated the word SaQaR under the light of the descriptive verses and related discoveries as the COMPUTER with succeeding screens manifesting the mathematical miracle of the Quran to all people.

Total BS bro, the computer evolves big time in a few years and yet using that computer you can?t resolve many of the number additions in your code, you had over 30 years so far and yet struggling to resolve major flawes, look how mush computers evolved in just the last 10 years, makes me laugh bro.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
So, we should not prime our minds or blind ourselves with prejudice by assuming SaQaR as HELL-FIRE before reading the following verses (75:16-19; 20:114).

Of course SAQAR is not the hell-fire, it is only one section out of the seven sections of the hell-fire

Quote from: Edip Yuksel

DOES "IT LEAVES NOTHING; IT LETS NOTHING" IN 74:28 MEAN "EXACT, PRECISE" OR "DESTROYS FLESH AND BONES"?
Though the short verse is not generally mistranslated, but its meaning and implication is distorted. In the light of the context and post-1974 discoveries we should understand it is description of the 19-based mathematical structure that is exact. It does neither leave extra (BaQaYa) nor it let anything necessary go away (WaZaRa); in other words, it is perfect and precise; it is not one more not one less!

Hahaha, thanks for the laugh bro, I never seen your code perfect nor precise, it is any thing but that bro, how about the Tom and Jerry criteria you guys keep changing?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
However, parroting the pre-1974 commentaries of the Quran, many translations and commentaries still convey the same misunderstanding. Since English translations usually do not comment on this particular verse and leave it to be understood within the context of CORPORAL PUNISHMENT, HELL and FIRE rather than the crucial role of the NUMBER NINETEEN,

BRO the ADAD 19 is masculine, and the two verbs ?Tubqi? and ?Tazir? are feminine, it does not add up bro


Quote from: Edip Yuksel
I will give you a sample of some popular Arabic commentaries of the Quran (which I have easy access in my personal library) in ascending chronological order. If the name of the commentary different than the name of the author his name will be indicated in the parenthesis. The number in parenthesis is the year of the authors' death:
Tabari (922): Neither kills nor leaves alive; or devours them all and when they are recreated do not leaves them until eating them.
Tha'alibi (1035): Does not leave the dweller of hell alone and burns them.
Bagawi (1122): Neither kills nor leaves alive; eats everything thrown in; does not leave their flesh nor take their bones.
Nasafi (1143): Does not leave the flesh nor does let the bones of its dwellers; destroys everything in it and then restores them back to their starting point.
Baydawi (1292): It does not leave anything thrown in and does not leave it until destroys it.
Qurtubi (1272): Does not leave for them neither flesh, nor bone, nor blood, but burns them. Or does not leave anything from them and then does not let them go when they are recreated.
Zad-ul Masir (Ibn Cawzi, 1200): Does not leave but destroys their flesh and does not let them go when they are recreated.
Ibn Kathir (1372): Eat their flesh, sweat, bones, and skin. They do not die in this condition or they live.
Jalalayn (Celaleddin, 1459): Destroys flesh and bones, then starts it again.
Ruh-ul Maani (Alusi 1853): Destroys flesh, bones of everything thrown in.


Bro, I care less about all the above, the two verbs ?Tubqi? and ?Tazir? are feminine and your number 19 is masculine


Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Interestingly, one can understand the verse as pre-1974 commentators understood. Though they all heavily relied on Hadith for understanding of this verse, and knowing that there were literally thousands competing to fabricate hadith for various reasons we cannot prove whether Muhammad and his believing friends too understood that way. In fact, since we know that Muhammad and his friends had no clue about the mathematical structure of the Quran but had faith in its promise of QURANIC MIRACLES being manifested in the future (10:20; 25:4-6; 29:50-51; 41:53), it is highly conceivable that they understood the fact that these verses were about the importance of the number 19 and that their meaning would be fulfilled in the future. I further assert that Muhammad and those who dedicated their religion to God alone by upholding the Quran as the sole authority in their religion, stopped speculating on these verses as soon as they received the divine instruction in 75:16-19. As we know, after Muslims started following the fabricated hadiths, sunnah, and man-made teachings of various sects (6:112-145; 6:159; 7:29; 9:31; 16:52; 18:57; 39:2,11;14; 39:29-37; 39:43-45; 40:14,65; 42:21; 98:5), they lost their capacity for understanding of the Quran (6:23-25; 17:46). (See FOOTNOTE 1 )
However, it is important to remember that the verses 74:26-37 contain many words that can be understood both a description of Hell and a description of a great miracle, though the later is a much better fit. This linguistically marvelous aspect is well appreciated by those who witness the mathematical miracle and understand the original language of the Quran.
 
DOES "LAWAHA" IN 74:29 MEAN SCORCHING/BURNING OR OBVIOUS/VISIBLE?
The derivatives of the word LWH are used in the Quran to mean a surface used for recording information, board, and flat wood; and nowhere is it used to mean scorch or burn. Before the fulfillment of the prophecy, translators and commentators of the Quran had difficulty in understanding the simple meaning of this word and thus, they resorted to external sources and often odd meanings, such as scorch, or burn. In fact, the drive to justify a particular meaning for some "difficult" Quranic words is one of the many reasons for fabricating Hadith. (See: FOOTNOTE 2).
Verse 74:29 is very interesting and crucial in understanding the rest of the chapter. Though it consists of only 2 words, this verse is translated in several different ways. Here are some examples from English Translations:
Yusuf Ali: "darkening and changing the color of man"
Marmaduke Pickthall: "It shrivelleth the man"
T.B. Irving: "as it shrivels human (flesh)."
M. H. Shakir: "It scorches the mortal."
MaulaHUM Muhammad Ali: "It scorches the mortal"
N. J. Dawood: "it burns the skins of men."
Muhammad Asad: "making (all truth) visible to mortal man."
Rashad Khalifa: "obvious to all the people."
Those who do not know Arabic might think that the words are really difficult to understand and translate. In fact, the meaning of these two words, LaWwaHa and BaSHaR is very clear in the Quranic context. The word LaWwaHa, which comes from the root LWH, is the sister of the word LaWH (85:22) and its plural aLWaH. The plural form aLWaH is used in verses 7:145, 150, 154 for the "tablets" given to Moses, and in verse 54:13 for broad planks used by Noah to build his ark. The medieval commentators, not knowing the mathematical implication of the verses, mostly chose an unusual meaning for the word: scorching, burning, shriveling, etc. Ironically, most of them did acknowledge the obvious meaning of the word as "open board, tablet" (See Baydawi, Fakhruddin Er-Razi, etc.) Few preferred the "obvious" to the obscure. For instance, Muhammad Asad, who had no idea of the mathematical code, preferred the most obvious meaning. Rashad Khalifa who fulfilled the prophecy and discovered the implication of the entire chapter reflected the same obvious meaning. That "obvious" meaning, however, was obscured by the smoke of "scorching fire" burning in the imaginations of generations before him.
In 7:145; 7:150; 7:154, the word eLWaH, the plural of LaWHa is used to depict the tablets on which the Ten Commandments were inscribed. In 54:13 it is used to describe the structure of the Noah's ship that made of wood panes. In 85:22 the same word is used for the mathematically protected record of the original version of the Quran. As for the LaWaHa of 74:29, it is the amplified noun-adjective derived from the root of verb LWH, meaning open tablets, succeeding screens, obvious, manifesto, or clearly and perpetually visible.
Ironically, the Quran uses different words to describe burning or scorching. For instance, for burning the derivatives of HaRaQa (2:266; 3:181; 7:5; 20:97; 21:68; 22:9; 22:22; 29:24; 75:10), or for scorching the derivatives of SaLaYa ( 4:10; 4:30; 4:56; 4:115; 14:29; 17:18; 19:70; 27:7; 28:29; 29:31; 36:64; 38:56; 38:59; 38:163; 52:16; 56:94; 58:8; 69:31; 74: 26; 82:15; 83:16; 84:12; 87:12; 88:12; 92:15), or NaDaJa are used (4:56).
Again, we should note that the understanding of pre-1974 commentators was not without basis. Though their understanding did not rely on the Quranic usage of the words, and created some problems (such as explaining the verse 74:31), they had some justifiable excuses to understand the way they understood. The word LaWaHa also meant burn and BaSHaRa was another word for skin in Arabic language. As I mentioned above, the multiple meaning of these verses allowed the impatient pre-1974 generations to have an understanding, though a temporary and not primarily intended one. In fact, it was better for them to have patient and not rush to speculate on these verses without knowledge (20:114; 75:16-19). It was the computer generation destined to understand their real meaning (10:37-46).
 
DOES "BASHAR" IN 74:29 MEAN SKIN OR HUMAN?
The translation of the second word, BaSHaR is also among the distorted one. Many old commentaries translated it as "skin" rather then "human being" or "people" or "humans." For instance, N. J. Dawood parrots such a translation. The meaning of BaSHaR is also obvious in the context of the Quran. The word BASHAR occurs in the Quran 36 times. It is also mentioned as BASHARAYN (two bashars). If we exclude the BASHAR of 74:29 for the sake of the argument, we see that the word BASHAR is used to mean human beings in all 36 verses: 3:47; 3:79; 5:18; 6:91; 11:27; 12:31; 14:10; 14:11; 15:28; 15:33; 16:103; 17:93; 17:94; 18:110; 19:17; 19:20; 19:26; 21:3; 21:34; 23:24; 23:33; 23:34; 25:54; 26:104; 26:186; 30:20; 36:15; 38:71; 41:6; 42:51; 54:24; 64:6; 74:25; 74:29; 74:31; 74:36.
Then, why those who have allergy against the code 19 still insist to translate the word BaSHaR as skin while in its all 36 occurrences the word BaSHaR there is not a single instance where the word BaSHaR is used to mean skin; but always used to mean human beings? Especially, despite the fact that the word BASHAR occurs thrice in the same Chapter: after 74:29, in 74:31 and 74:36, and the fact that the verse 74:36 witnesses for the 36th times for "human beings," and that they were obliged to translate the last two occurrences as "human beings," how could they still insist on translating the BaSHaR of 74:29 as "skin." Since the prophetic verses did not make any sense for them before its fulfillment in 1974, translators and commentators of the Quran had an excuse to translate it differently before the fulfillment of the prophecy. However, after learning the discovery, none has an excuse to still continue parroting the overly stretched meaning.
Furthermore, the Quran uses "GeLD" for skin. This organic wrap that protects our body and provides tactile sense is referred in 13 verses with GLD and its derivatives: 4:56; 4:56; 16:80; 22:20; 24:2; 24:2; 24:4; 24:4; 39:23; 39:23; 41:20; 41:21; 41:22.
In short, while the Quran consistently uses GLD and its derivatives for skin and related words and while it consistently uses BShR for human beings, a convincing reason must be provided for ignoring all these examples and translating the BShR of 74:39 as "skin." The pre-1974 generations can be excused for trying to understand these verses even if it meant accepting some uncommon usages or dialects. As for post-1974 generation, if they are still stuck with hell and fire, then they share the same disease with the disbelievers of the past (2:75; 4:46; 5:13; 5:41).
After the fulfillment of the prophecy and divine clarification of its context, it is distortion to render this two-word verse 74:29 as "shrivels/scorches the skin" or "shrivels/scorches the man" rather than "it is clearly visible for human beings" or "it is a manifesto/successive-screens for human beings." However, the repetitive stretch and distortion committed by the post-1974 translators/commentaries on the many verses of Chapter 74 is bizarre and extraordinary. This pattern is prophetically described by verses 2:18; 3:7; 11:28; 41:44; 17:72; 25:73; 27:81.

Bro I believe I responded to all the above earlier

AhmedBahgat

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Quote from: Edip Yuksel
DOES THE PRONOUN "HIYA" (SHE) IN THE END OF 74:31 REFER TO THE HELL OR TO THE NUMBER 19?
We know that verse 74:30 does not qualify the reference of 19. It pulls our attention to a NUMBER ALONE.

As many other verses do bro with many other numbers.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
The verse does not say "on it nineteen angles" or "on it nineteen guards" or "on it nineteen this or that." The verse says "on it nineteen." Period.

LOL bro, the same happened with the 8 who are carrying His throne, it said ?and carrying the throne are 8.?[/b], Period.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Verse 74:31, after informing us that the number of guardians of hell is 19, isolates this number from hell again describes its role.

Yet, those whose minds stuck in Hell cannot even notice this evident emphasis to the number. Thus, they violate the general grammar rules and universal linguistic logic and identify the reference of HIYA (SHE) in the end of 74:31 as HELL FIRE.
According to the grammar rules and common linguistic logic, the reference of a pronoun should be sought in proximity first. Sure, if there is no compelling empirical or rational reason for skipping a closer noun. For instance, "Yesterday, at Mary's home I saw Lisa. She was very thoughtful." In this sentence grammar and logic leads us to think that the thoughtful person was Lisa not Mary. But, "Yesterday, in Delhi's streets on the back of an elephant I saw Lisa. She was swinging her trunk/hose left and right and walking majestically." (I had given the original example in Turkish and in Turkish the same word is used for both elephant's trunk and hose. For didactic purposes please assume that it is the same in English.) Though grammatically the best candidate for reference of SHE is Lisa, we have an empirical reason to ignore the general rule since the one who would swing her trunk/hose is the elephant. But if these sentences are in a story and if we are told that Lisa was walking in the street with a hose in her hand, then the SHE in the sentence may equally refer to elephant OR Lisa. There will be ambiguity and if it is intentionally done then we wonder the purpose of the ambiguity. But, if the sentences continue, "When she hit the trunk/hose in her hand to a store sign?," then we become sure that it was a hose not trunk. "Your mother had given you a walnut and a book. Have you eat and finished it?" A sound mind can easily deduce that that "it" refers not to the book, but to the walnut. But, if the question were "Your mother had given you a walnut and a book. Have you finished it?" then, an ambiguity will arise. However, if the context of the question is known then we can deduce whether the query is about finishing the book or the walnut or both.

The pronoun HIYA (SHE), based on the rules of grammar, the emphasis of the verse in its context, and based on the rhetorical superiority of its meaning, must be referred to the grammatically feminine closest noun IDDATAHUM (their number, that is Nineteen). How can we explain the act of skipping IDDATAHUM (their number, Nineteen) by ignoring the grammar, context, emphasis, and rhetoric, and insisting to reach the FIRE?

We will see in the miraculously elegant and prophetic expression of the Quran that hypocrites and unappreciative people have deserved the SaQaR penalty both in this world and hereafter. In this world as the 19-based mathematical code of the Quran; they will be intellectually tormented by its powerful evidences. And in the hereafter as the 19 guards of symbolic hell-fire; they will be convicted to eternally face the number 19 in the presence of guarding angles. (See FOOTNOTE 3)


Bro, it is simple, HIYA in 74:31 is referring to the feminine Finah mentioned earlier in the same verse
 
Quote from: Edip Yuksel
DOES THE "ZIKRA" (REMINDER) IN 74:31 REFER TO HELL OR THE EVIDENCE?
This brings us to the last phrase of verse 74:31 "it/this is a warning/reminder for mankind." Old commentaries and their parroting contemporaries refer "it/this" to the FIRE or HELL.

Those who have difficulty in accepting the possibility of an intellectual argument in The Hidden One (Muddathir), insert a HELL in the translation or the understanding of the last phrase of 74:31:
"This (HELL) is a warning for people."
This way, they transform the ZiKRa to a warning to be scared, to a penalty to avoid. However, all the derivatives of ZKR, including ZiKRa, are used in the Quran 267 times; and if we include DKR which is mentioned 7 times; this word is mentioned 274 times in the Quran and NOWHERE is it used to describe HELL or FIRE. You may check for yourself all the 21 verses where the word ZiKRa is mentioned: 6:68; 6:69; 6090; 7:2; 11:114; 11:120; 21:84; 26:209; 29:51; 38:43; 38:46; 39:21; 40:54; 44:13; 50:8; 50:37; 51:55; 74:31; 80:4; 87:9; 89:23. You may also check the two verses where the word is suffixed with pronouns ZiKRaha and ZiKRahum: 47:18; 79:43.
More interestingly, however, you will find another derivative of the same word "ZiKRa" (reminder) is used in verse 74:49 as "taZKiRa."
"Why do they turn away from this message/reminder (taZKiRa)?"
The disbelievers had ignored the reminder! Obviously, hell cannot be that reminder, since you are not supposed to embrace and face hell while you are alive on this earth. You are expected to turn away from Hell and turn to the message (taZKiRa). Therefore, taZKiRa and ZiKRa cannot be both HELL and the MESSAGE of the Quran. All the derivatives of ZKR are consistently used in the Quran for the divine message that revives and bestows eternal happiness.
Because of the self-ignited and self-inflicted hell fire burning in their minds, the disbelievers and hypocrites ignore the PLEASANT meaning associated to the word 280 times, and fight with us to keep it as HELL. Well, this was exactly what they were promised and what they deserve. Their initial decision, their prejudice, ignorance and arrogance, have led them to bet their faith on hell, a questionable one chance against 280 chances!

Yeh bro it means reminder for sure, so we are reminded that Hell has 19 angels that will enforce the horrible punishment in one of its 7 sectiones named Saqar
 
Quote from: Edip Yuksel
HOW DOES THE NUMBER NINETEEN INCREASE THE FAITH OF BELIEVERS AND ALSO REMOVE DOUBTS FROM THE MINDS OF PEOPLE OF THE BOOK AS PROMISED IN 74:31?
With the exception of Rashad Khalifa, all the translations and commentaries listed above have had big problem with this question. Since they did not accept it as a prophecy left to be fulfilled in the future, and since they rushed to speculate on them without knowledge, they dug a hole for themselves. Surely, they always could deceive themselves and others by claiming that THEIR FAITH was increased because of the association of the number 19 with the guardians of hell. This claim obviously would be a non-falsifiable claim. One can say anything about his or her own faith. However, this claim could not explain why specifically 19 and not another number or another thing. Let's assume they could pretend that their faith was really increased by the nineteen guardians of hell, but how could they explain the other functions of the number nineteen? How could this number nineteen remove the doubts of people of the book? The proponents of HELL-19 just could not make up an answer for this, since the issue involved an OBJECTIVE fact, not a subjective claim.
Interestingly, those who saw the Hell-fire in these prophetic verses claimed that the people of the book would believe in the Quran because they would see that the number of guardians of hell was also nineteen in their own books! What? Please read it again. Yes, this is the explanation of all the prominent Sunni and Shiite scholars of the past and unfortunately it is exactly parroted by the contemporary ones!
First, there is no such a statement in the Bible. Second, even if there was such a statement there would not be anything special about nineteen, since there are many principles, stories of prophets, and instructions mentioned in the Quran that are also in the Bible. In fact, the very existence of similarity had an opposite effect on many people of the book; they claimed and still claim that the Quran was plagiarized from the Bible. Third, none has been persuaded regarding the authenticity of the Quran because the number of guardians of hell is nineteen! I personally communicated and met dozens of Christians or Jews whose doubts about the authenticity of the Quran was removed because of their witnessing the mathematical miracle of the Quran based on the number nineteen. You can find some of these people on Internet forums. This is happening despite the aggressive misinformation and disinformation campaign carried out by numerous Sunni and Shiite groups. Compare the prophetic role of MIRACLE-19 to the role of HELL-19 in their powers of removing doubts from the minds of People of the Book. Two DECADES versus more than 14 CENTURIES, and several THOUSAND people versus more than a BILLION people.

Not the number bro that will increase, it is only knowing that the punishment of hell will be enforced by any number of angels should increase their faith because they have a chance to escape that punishment

AhmedBahgat

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Quote from: Edip Yuksel
The HELL-19 advocates cannot show a single Christian or Jew who converted to their version of Islam because their doubts were removed after they noticed that the number of guardians of hell is also 19 in their books! This failure alone should be sufficient to wake up those who are still eager to see Hell in these verses. Yet, they still shamelessly repeat this lie to defend their hellish version.

This is total non sense, 74:31 never suggested that having 19 hell guards will make Jews and Christians convert to Islam, how about those who did before 1974? Millions and millions of them for 1400 years, you are talking non sense bro

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Some opponents of the CODE-19 even tried to use a phrase in verse 74:31 against understanding of the very verse. They quote the fifth function of the number nineteen, "to expose those who have disease in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, 'What did God mean by this allegory?'" and then charge us: "You 19ers are asking this question;

That is exactly right, R K asked the question and you followed him, face the truth bro, also there is no 5 functions in 74:31 they are only 4 funstions as I explained earlier

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
therefore, you have disease in your hearts." First, none of us have asked this question, including Rashad Khalifa.

Really?, so why the hell he is making all that bloody code 19 after he read the verse, how he created that without asking himself the bloody question?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
We happened to learn the meaning of number nineteen even before asking such a question.

Bro, who is you are fooling exactly, number 19 means only one thing, it means number 19.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
We know the meaning of this allegory and we do not challenge that meaning. Furthermore, this question is not a question of a curious person who sincerely wants to learn the meaning of the Quran. This question is the challenge of arrogance and ignorance. It is a question that many still millions of Sunni and Shiite people are asking themselves. They will keep asking this question as long as they follow their ancestors blindly and worship Prophet Muhammad and religious scholars.

Glad I don?t belong to any of those sects you mentioned


Quote from: Edip Yuksel
DOES THE "HA" IN 74:35 REFER TO HELL OR THE NUMBER 19? DOES THE WORD "KUBRA" IN THE SAME VERSE REFER TO "GREAT DISASTERS AND CALAMITIES" OR TO "GREAT SIGNS AND MIRACLES"?
When we reflect on the context and the usage of the words of verse "This is one of the greatest" we can easily deduce that this refers to the number 19 and its prophetic function as a conclusive evidence for the authenticity of the Quran and a great test for people. Unfortunately, many of those who did not witness the incredible mathematical structure based on the number 19, related this verse to Hell, again.


I guess I answered that before

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Let's one by one see several different translations of this verse. (Again, the pre-1974 translations have an excuse in their mistranslations since they did not witness the fulfillment of the prophecy of the mathematical miracle):
Yusuf Ali: "this is but one of the mighty (portents)"
Marmaduke Pickthall: "Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents)"
T.B. Irving: "Surely it is one of the gravest (misfortunes)."
M.H. Shakir: "Surely it (hell) is one of the gravest (misfortunes)."
MaulaHUM Muhammad Ali: "Surely it is one of the gravest (misfortunes)"
N. J. Dawood: "it is a dire scourge."
Muhammad Asad: "Verily, that [hell-fire) is Indeed one of the great [forewarnings]"
Rashad Khalifa: "This is one of the greatest miracles."


Hmmm, the only clear cut manipulator above is R K because the verses never talked about a miracle

Now the Ha is a feminine dmir and the ADAD 19 is masculine, what else I have to say?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
I leave for you to assess the contextual reference of the pronoun in 74:35. Here, I will draw your attention to the descriptive word KuBeR, which is the plural of KaBeeR derived from KBR (great). The derivatives of KBR are used in the Quran to describe positive or negative events, people, or things. For instance, in verses 20:23; 44:16; 53:18; 79:20 it is used to describe God's ayaats or miracles. The derivatives of the same word are used for disaster in 79:34 and hell in 87:12.
In other words, if we do not consider the context of the group of verses, we may understand the reference of THIS IS ONE OF THE GREATEST as either HELL FIRE or one of God's greatest MIRACLES. Through this verse alone, one may see flames of fire or signs of a miracle. Nevertheless, considering the context of this verse it becomes clear that the first vision is a man-made hallucination and the later a divine gift.
 
DOES THE WORD NAZER IN 74:36 REFER TO THE HELL FIRE OR TO THE DEVINE EVIDENCES?
NAZER is an adjective derived from the root NZR and means "WARNER" Throughout the Quran the various derivatives of this word occur 130 times. Here are the verse numbers where the form NaZeR (warner) occurs 44 times: 2:119; 5:19; 5:19; 7:184; 7:188; 11:2; 11:12; 11:25; 15:89; 17:105; 25:1; 25:7; 25:51; 25:56; 26:115; 28:46; 29:50; 32:3; 33:45; 34:28; 34:34; 34:44; 34:46; 35:23; 35:24; 35:24; 35:37; 35:42; 35:42; 38:70; 41:4; 43:23; 46:9; 48:8; 51:50; 51:51; 53:56; 67:8; 67:9; 67:17; 67:26; 71:2; 74:36.
In NONE of these verses the word NaZeR is used for HELL or FIRE. In these verses NaZeR describe God's messengers, books, revelation, and signs.
 
THEN WHY THOSE WHO CLAIM TO BE MUSLIMS DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR APPRECIATE THE PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT OF THESE AYAAT (REVELATIONS/SIGNS/MIRACLES)? WHY THEY SEE AND WORK HARD TO SEE HELL-FIRE, INSTEAD OF THE PRECISE AND UNIVERSAL GREAT MIRACLE?
Surely, previous generations who were not aware the discovery of Code 19 via computer had an excuse to twist the meaning of obvious verses in order to make sense out of them. They could not imagine that the 19 was the code of an elaborate mathematical system. Nevertheless, some early commentators of the Quran who did not limit the understanding of the Quran with Hadith and Sunnah sensed something beyond HELL from these verses and discussed them as alternative understanding. For instance, Fakhruddin er-Razi in his famous Tafsir al Kabir, in his 23rd comment on Basmalah, speculates on the 19 letters of Basmalah and lists numerous implications, such as the difference between the number of 5 prayers and the number of hours in a day; the number of physical, intellectual, and emotional faculties that humans are blessed with, etc. Among the modern commentators who lived before 1974, Muhammad Asad is the only one that subscribes to Razi's interpretation of the number nineteen of 74:30. (See FOOTNOTE 4). However, Asad too could not avoid but see Hell everywhere.
The opponents of the miracle 19 are no different than those who rejected the entire Quran in the past. The description of these verses fits both groups, which is another miraculous aspect of the Quran:
74:21 He looked.
74:22 He frowned and scowled.
74:23 Then he turned away arrogantly.
74:24 He said, "This is but an impressive illusion/magic!" (See FOOTNOTE 5)
74:25 "This is human made."
In conclusion, those who reject to witness the miracle 19 are insulting the wisdom of God. According to them God's only answer to someone who challenges the authenticity of the Quran is: "Get lost! I will burn you in the hellfire" Depicting God as someone who cannot engage in an intellectual argument with His opponent, but can only employ the cheapest method of persuasion (threat) cannot be the path of believers who are warned by the incredible prophecies of this wonderful chapter, The Secret.
Turning back to the question: Then why those who claim to be Muslims do not understand or appreciate the prophetic fulfillment of these ayaat (revelations/signs/miracles)? Why they see and work hard to see hell-fire, instead of the precise and universal great miracle?
The Quran provides prophetic answers to this question in numerous verses. Please read and reflect on them:
"A.L.M. Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being tested? We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars." (29:1-4)
"Their example is like those who start a fire, then, as it begins to shed light its surrounding, God takes away their light, leaving them in darkness, unable to see. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they will not return." (2:17-18)
"I will divert from My revelations/signs/miracles (ayaat) those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of sign/miracle (ayat) they will not believe in. When they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path. Yet, when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our revelations/signs/miracles (ayaat) and of being heedless thereof." (7:146) (See, FOOTNOTE 6)
"They challenge you to bring the retribution, when Hell is already surrounding the unappreciative/disbelievers." (29:54) (Please read from 29:48)
"He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses- which constitute the essence of the scripture-as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this-all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed." (3:7) (See FOOTNOTE 7)
"When reminded of their Lord's revelations/signs/miracles, they never react to them as if they were deaf and blind." (25:73)
"Are they waiting for angels to come to them, or your Lord, or some manifestation/miracles of your Lord? The day some of the manifestation/miracles of your Lord come, no person will benefit from believing if he or she did not believe before that, and did not reap the benefits of belief by leading a righteous life. Say, 'Keep on waiting; we too will wait." (6:158).
"Some of them listen to you. But we place veils on their hearts to prevent them from understanding, and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what kind of sign/miracle they see, they cannot believe. Thus, when they argue with you, the unappreciative disbelievers will say, "These are tales from past." (6:25-26)
"When they arrive, He will say, "You have rejected My revelations/signs/miracles before acquiring knowledge about them. Is this not what you did?" (27:84).
"They never expected an accounting/calculation. And they passionately rejected our revelations/miracles. Although we have counted everything in a record/book." (78:27-29).
"They cannot take heed against God's will. He is the source of righteousness; He is the source of forgiveness." (74:56).
Alhamdulillah.

Thanks bro

Edip Yuksel

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Dear Ahmad:

As in the past, many miracles were rejected and mocked by arrogant ingrates, this miracle of the Quran will also continue be rejected and mocked by similar people who are well-described by 7:146. You will continue see Hell in chapter 74, and I will continue see a great prophecy and miracle there. You continue imagine a god unable to provide intellectual evidence for the claims of ingrates except hell, and I will continue to witness God's wisdom and intriguing message. You continue inhaling the smoke of hell (which you are already surrounded by), I will continue enjoying the examples of great miracles.

You received the message, yet you tried so hard to reject. I will no more add anything. You can declare victory if you wish and enjoy for a while. God will be the judge between us in the Day of Judgment. Inshallah I will meet you there.

Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel, J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
Each of us must use our own mind in pursuit of knowledge. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

AhmedBahgat

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Quote from: Edip Yuksel
Dear Ahmad:

Salam bro Edib

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
As in the past, many miracles were rejected and mocked by arrogant ingrates,

I agree bro, however this only applies for true miracles, i.e. it is ok to mock fake miracles

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
this miracle of the Quran will also continue be rejected and mocked by similar people who are well-described by 7:146.

Well, can you please prove first that code 19 is one of Ayyal Allah, did He ever say that in the Quran?

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You will continue see Hell in chapter 74,

this is what sura 74 is talking about to the naked eye

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
and I will continue see a great prophecy and miracle there.

and that is what sura 74 is not talking about if you mean code 19

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You continue imagine a god unable to provide intellectual evidence for the claims of ingrates except hell,

this is what He said not that I made it up

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
and I will continue to witness God's wisdom and intriguing message.

it seems you can only do that if there is a code 19, if not then the Quran may be usless to you

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You continue inhaling the smoke of hell (which you are already surrounded by),

Not really bro, so far I only inhale my cigis smoke, for hell I hope that I don't even come near it however it seems that all of us must at least come near it once.

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
I will continue enjoying the examples of great miracles.

That is right bro, the quran without code 19 is a useless book for you, sorry

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You received the message,

thank you and I have to say likewise to you

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
yet you tried so hard to reject.

well you too rejected the message, however I didnlt really tried hard yet, if we debate code 19 logically without emotions I can show you how hard I can try

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
I will no more add anything.


please do if you have any, I will be all ears

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
You can declare victory if you wish and enjoy for a while.

please bro, donlt tell me that crap, I never consider myself victories over muslims, and truely despite that I see blasphemy in code 19, I still treat as a muslim and I really like you, I just donlt like you cliams and your obsession with code 19, just my opinion bro

Quote from: Edip Yuksel
God will be the judge between us in the Day of Judgment. Inshallah I will meet you there.

Peace,
Edip


Sure bro and I really hope that both me and you meet in the Garden Inshaallah

Salam