Author Topic: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?  (Read 5734 times)

Danish

  • Guest
Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
« on: August 08, 2006, 11:02:34 PM »
What are the differences, if any? Hope to get some intellectual thoughts and a good discussion?

Nadeem

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 873
  • Karma +2/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2006, 11:30:34 PM »
Hi bro Danish,

Could you define the terms "Organized religion" and "System of God" in your own words. So that we know exactly what we're talking about.

Thanks,

Nadeem

Danish

  • Guest
Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2006, 12:49:45 AM »
Hi bro Danish,

Could you define the terms "Organized religion" and "System of God" in your own words. So that we know exactly what we're talking about.

Thanks,

Nadeem
Hello Nadeem,

Honestly speaking, that's what I am trying to find out. In short, people think that organized religion comes from the bifurcation of Islam (Sunnism & Shiaism) as per Quran and Ahadith and further disintegrating while the System of God is purely from Quran as per Quran/God Aloners and that too being disintegrated. I personally believe that both the Quran and Ahadiths are just hadiths (collection of narrations) only to find out that Quranic hadith came long before the Ahadiths and hence became the best hadith. Then we have another formation of an organized religion-cum-system of God combination called Code-19 (a mathematical one) and that too getting fragmented. All of them criticise each other to better understand their own systems and forcing their issues onto others. You can witness this happening all over Internet forums. After studying and understanding various religions for quite some time and actually being there myself, I left them all and became a "naturalist", i.e. living my life as dictated by nature/reality. Hope this helps.

Nadeem

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 873
  • Karma +2/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2006, 02:20:10 AM »
Hi Danish,

Thanks for clearing things up :)

I see that the points you're making regarding fragmentation are valid. This was also my concern when I started the topic "The truth is important, but..".

If one rejects a person or accepts a person based even on those personal beliefs, superstitions, opinions, conclusions, and thoughts of that person which do not pose an imminent or a remote danger to the well-being of one self, then one is bound to cause fragmentation. I believe that the brotherhood in islam is above those factors. I take this out of:

7:87
"And if a group of you believes in what I have been sent with, and a group disbelieves, then wait until God judges between us. He is the best of judges."


What is God's judgment on this, and how do we recognize it? The answer is in the very next verse:

7:88
And the leaders who became arrogant form among his people said: "We will drive you out of our town Shu'ayb, along with those who believed with you, or else you will return to our creed!" He said: "Would you force us?"


God doesn't decide between us with numbers nor with fatwas nor with opposing views among ourselves. The decision is made when one of the groups make their beliefs a danger to the well-being of others.

I ask whoever that might read this: Why can't we unite as longs as our beliefs and interpretations of the quran do not encourage the destruction of one another, nor hinder us from contributing to betterment?

I don't know if I've given you any intellectual thoughts Bro Danish, but it seems to me that "system of god" is the fetus, and "Organized religion" is the newborn, as long as we keep impregnanting our minds with condemnation towards eachother due to our non-lethal views.

Nadeem

Danish

  • Guest
Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2006, 03:03:03 AM »
Peace Nadeem,

I haven't forgotten your good post above and will get to it in time. Thanks.

mquran

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 2609
  • Karma +15/-2
Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2006, 03:12:33 AM »
Quote
Danish:I haven't forgotten your good post above and will get to it in time. Thanks

Nadeem, don't hold your breath. Like Enquirer, Danish - when he recognises that you've asked questions his worm-brain can't comprehend - will retreat quickly and pretend to forget. You've got a loooong wait ahead, Nadeem.

Danish

  • Guest
Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2006, 11:14:49 AM »
Hello Nadeem,

If one rejects a person or accepts a person based even on those personal beliefs, superstitions, opinions, conclusions, and thoughts of that person which do not pose an imminent or a remote danger to the well-being of one self, then one is bound to cause fragmentation.
Paraphrasing your point above, am I correct to understand that "if one rejects or accepts one's beliefs without imminent danger for their own well-being, then division takes place"? I shall reply accordingly.

Quote
What is God's judgment on this, and how do we recognize it?

God doesn't decide between us with numbers nor with fatwas nor with opposing views among ourselves.
I?d like to get your own self-realization and understanding of GOD before we spin out verses from the Quran. For example, how do you know that it is ?God?s judgment? and ?God does and/or doesn?t decide? or ?God says and/or doesn?t say this or that? or ?God did and/or didn?t mention this or that?, etc., etc.? We can discuss this "GOD" issue over at the other section, if you like.

Quote
7:88
And the leaders who became arrogant form among his people said: "We will drive you out of our town Shu'ayb, along with those who believed with you, or else you will return to our creed!" He said: "Would you force us?"

The decision is made when one of the groups make their beliefs a danger to the well-being of others.
Aren?t the above statements common human traits mankind has witnessed eons since and still quite vibrant, only that the above specific statement addresses Shuaib in its own time, no?

Quote
I ask whoever that might read this: Why can't we unite as longs as our beliefs and interpretations of the quran do not encourage the destruction of one another, nor hinder us from contributing to betterment?
That?s a tough question Nadeem, but I'll try to respond. My personal view is that unless people shun all unprecedented imaginations, myths and conjectures (especially on religious grounds) and live in reality and what nature calls for, they can never unite and frankly, quite impossible.

Quote
I don't know if I've given you any intellectual thoughts Bro Danish, but it seems to me that "system of god" is the fetus, and "Organized religion" is the newborn, as long as we keep impregnanting our minds with condemnation towards eachother due to our non-lethal views.
Your thoughts are certainly relevant and must be analyzed and defined, as is mine and others too. And I?m glad we are here discussing them. I believe the ?essence of nature/reality? is the fetus (the truth), while an ?organized religion? stems from it, mixed with imaginations, myths, folklore, tales and so forth, for creed, greed and breed on individual or grouped basis, hence forming divisions. Mankind in essence, carries all fundamental unlying principles as dictated and directed by this very essence of nature/reality and is not subjected to any sole organized religion to understand its effects.

Please remember that these are my personal views coming out of my own reflections and understandings and ofcourse subject to scrutiny.

Lobster

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 3733
  • Karma +16/-10
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2006, 10:11:36 AM »
peace

"islam" is just a word that means "submission to god (or peace?)."
How can "islam" be an organized religion?
submitting to god does not require rituals, it involves doing good works.

Quote
Your thoughts are certainly relevant and must be analyzed and defined, as is mine and others too. And I?m glad we are here discussing them. I believe the ?essence of nature/reality? is the fetus (the truth), while an ?organized religion? stems from it, mixed with imaginations, myths, folklore, tales and so forth, for creed, greed and breed on individual or grouped basis, hence forming divisions.
I agree.
The reason it does is that people like seeing this world in objects. In things. "Believers" recognize that the world has no objects.
People are concerned too much with material things, when our focus should be on the immaterial.
`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

'Phoenix! You are in Hot water, maybe you should change your name to Lobster.' - Khalil

Abuja

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 167
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2006, 11:34:39 AM »
In my opinion all religions are not systems of God or Allah but systems of man.  Man has created all of the religions in the world.  The only ones that would be in any way a system of God would be those that God has created and God creates things and teaches man everyday.  It is then up to us to do exactly as God says of instructs us to do.  If we then alter from this it would not be completely correct/true.  Therefore it would then not be a system of God but of man because man altered it.  Therefore taking away its  authenticity.   

Sincerely, Abuja/Larry
Sincerely, Abuja

kevynbello

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 103
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is Islam an Organized Religion or a System of God?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2006, 01:40:15 PM »
As for me, Islam (Submission) is a system of GOD, as all the Manifestations (great rasul) have taught, but the West (as it usually does) confined it to "religion."

In reality, there is only one religion: the Religion of GOD. It is humans who add superficial rituals and superstitions instead of purifying the Words of GOD. Even Buddha preached about One GOD, whom He described in very philosophical terms, but His disciples took it to mean monism instead of that glorious Monotheism. They glorified Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna, Jesus, etc. instead of focusing on the messages which they intended to give, and from that worship, they developed rigid ritualism.

But I'm sure GOD will forgive them... perhaps.

I am Baha'i, by the way. :D


In the name of GOD, the Most Pure, the Most Pure,
Kevyn.