Author Topic: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?  (Read 3492 times)

soul2squeeze

  • Guest
Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2006, 07:58:16 AM »
Peace Simple

Please explain to me the alternative meaning for BAQAR and GHANAM if you are truthful.

Thanks

enquirer

  • Guest
Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2006, 08:17:06 AM »
Easy peoples. I must say that simples' method of translation is one of the better methods on the forum...(relatively speaking.) Taking the quran literally results in many contradictions and problems...The chopping of hands,whippings and sticks turning into snakes are just a few examples of what happens with literalism...Sticking to literalism is a very perilous and harmful position... see 17:36...

simple

  • Guest
Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2006, 08:24:11 AM »
Peace Simple

Please explain to me the alternative meaning for BAQAR and GHANAM if you are truthful.

Thanks

Salaams souls,

From lanes lex:

Ghanima = earning or a gain obtained without trouble/ spoils of war.

Baqarun = Cow/ Slit/ ripped/ slit/ cut/ devide.



soul2squeeze

  • Guest
Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2006, 08:25:04 AM »
Peace Enquirer

This issue is that he's using other "meanings" for the words in the aya. So he's not taking it at all metaphorically but rather using new definitions... which ideally is fine if something doesn't make sense the way it is traditionally seen. i have no problem with searching for parrallel analogies in verses either. But this aya is literally talking about body parts of cows and sheep and what parts were permissible to eat and what parts weren't. To say that alternative definitions would equal no fighting, is something incomprehensible given the arabic words in the specific aya. I really have no problem with the idea that we should "be fair and not take things of others". It's just that this aya has nothing to do with that in the slightest- even if we look at some kind of alternaitve definition. This is why I'm asking simple to show us the evidence. How does baqar and ghanam refer to the concept he came up with?

There's no attack here at all, I just need some evidence so we can logically reach a rational conclusion.

Peace All

soul2squeeze

  • Guest
Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2006, 08:32:04 AM »
Peace Simple

Sorry I posted I think while you were psting too...so I didn't know you already answered  :D

Thanks for the speedy reply.

Unfortunately, you cannot use any verb forms of these root words because in the aya, it is in the noun form. Please notice the alif lam before baqar and ghanam. In the aya it is AL-BAQAR and AL-GHANAM, making it a definite noun... so it's the cow and the sheep.

I hope this clears things up

Peace All

enquirer

  • Guest
Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2006, 08:37:08 AM »
Peace soul. I understand your position,i just feel that one can explain things by metaphor,dictionaries or even by cross-referencing to real life experiences...I understand your need for evidence,thats natural...However in my experience we sometimes get defensive when we feel certain 'comfortable' understandings we have are 'threatened' by new or radical alternatives...When i first heard of people reading the quran without hadith i was unconvinced,then later when folks interpreted quran without 'literalism i was again unconvinced,now im at the stage where i dont even feel we need a book or god to be decent people..... 8)
Being a free-mind can be achieved when we let go of pre-conceptions,which are based on a need to be 'comfortable',and the need to have 'infallible' knowledge...
I feel 'reality' is half objective and half subjective....'Life is what you make it,but not completely'...
ps; sorry for the metaphysical stuff at the end... :)
pps; i feel the excessive use/reliance upon grammer,linguistics and verbal forms can distort the message of many books...

simple

  • Guest
Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2006, 08:39:54 AM »
Sorry Br,

 with repsects

can't convince me as i believe the language has modified , developed after the quran and if anyone says men used to change into monkeys well i wouldn't couldn't accept it thanks though,men to monkeys  ;)...............

Salaams.

soul2squeeze

  • Guest
Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2006, 08:49:41 AM »
Peace Enquirer

I definitely agree with you that there are growing pains in letting go of blind dogma and embracing a new concept as the logical conclusion. I also agree with you that you can be a wonderful person and not believe in God or any book. Whether, you live a fullfilled life and go on to eternal bliss is another debate altogether.

I think you're right that trying to gain infallible knowledge on something is impossible. We as humans are limited in our capacity to understand everything all at once. It's a journey that never ends.

However, I need to tell you that I'm not trying to gain infallible knowledge or excessively rely on linguistics. I think it's crucial however to understand the words on a page if we are to discuss it at all. If it's not necessary to understand linguistics or grammar at any level, it would be very difficult to read any book or article or even a post.


Peace Simple

If you believe the quran was modified to make the verb into a noun, then peace be with you brother. I don't understand what you keep mentioning about men and monkeys honestly... I didn't see anything about monkeys in this verse either  :-\ but that's ok

Peace

enquirer

  • Guest
Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2006, 08:54:07 AM »
Easy soul. I do respect your manner of discussion and your open-ness...I also do agree with your point that some rudimentary knowledge of lingusitics is needed...
What place would you give metaphor in the quran,and what are the implications for grammer rules when one takes verses metaphorically? Thanks in advance...

idolfree1

  • Guest
Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2006, 09:06:51 AM »
Peace be upon you all,

I also approach the verse about Jews being forbidden fat as metaphor also, but I dont understand it yet.

The God does not expect us to blindly believe some commandment, PROOF is required for all that we do. Why would the God command only a section of mankind to not eat the fat of an animal? What about the NON jews of that time period? Was the God condoning sectarinism?

I dont agree that "jews" are even being spoken of, I just am not sure of what its all about just yet.