Author Topic: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?  (Read 3466 times)

soul2squeeze

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Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2006, 09:07:39 AM »
Peace Enquirer

I believe parrallel analogies found in the quran is the miracle that makes quran so unique and could only be from Divine source.

I personally noticed this specifically with stories narrated in the quran. This is just from my own limited knowledge. Perhaps it could be found everywhere. However in regards to the stories, I believe they are literal but also have a parallel spiritual message that could only be understood if we take the meanings of the words metaphorically. It's like two meanings in one. More bang for your buck if you will  :D

In order to reach metaphorical conclusions, I think looking at root words for root meanings is beneficial. Again, I'm against this notion that the quran is a puzzle and we have to figure it out because it says something and means something else. But I do believe that the quran demands of us active thinking and active participation in reading it. We can't just passively read and the message just pops in our heads and we're done. So to a certain extent, understanding grammar and linguistics is mandatory. But we don't need to split hairs or make each verse into an unsolved mystery.
That's just my opinion

Peace

simple

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Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2006, 09:22:34 AM »
Peace Enquirer

I definitely agree with you that there are growing pains in letting go of blind dogma and embracing a new concept as the logical conclusion. I also agree with you that you can be a wonderful person and not believe in God or any book. Whether, you live a fullfilled life and go on to eternal bliss is another debate altogether.

I think you're right that trying to gain infallible knowledge on something is impossible. We as humans are limited in our capacity to understand everything all at once. It's a journey that never ends.

However, I need to tell you that I'm not trying to gain infallible knowledge or excessively rely on linguistics. I think it's crucial however to understand the words on a page if we are to discuss it at all. If it's not necessary to understand linguistics or grammar at any level, it would be very difficult to read any book or article or even a post.


Peace Simple

If you believe the quran was modified to make the verb into a noun, then peace be with you brother. I don't understand what you keep mentioning about men and monkeys honestly... I didn't see anything about monkeys in this verse either  :-\ but that's ok

Peace

well if there arn't monkeys in that ayah they are all over other ayah's , like 002.065 005.060 007.166
and who can say what other things there are :


men to pigs,
oceans splitting,
sticks to snakes
moon splitting.
................................you probably know the rest.

And Its all mistranslation.


Peace

mquran

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Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2006, 10:23:03 AM »
Salaamun alaikum,

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AB:bro the Quran is not about finding new conspets for the verses and I can see that is what you only do really

You're right. It's not about finding new concepts for the verses. It's about finding out original concepts of AQ and this is what Simple is doing. I may not agree with all of his conclusions, but he's asking some very deconstructive questions.

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S2S:I apologize if this sounds harsh, but you really can't just pick an aya that doesn't make sense to you, and instead of trying to understand it, make up things. This is really not how deen works at all. If there are issues you have with quran I would suggest you try to research thru the real meaning, because there is a big danger in attributing falsehood to God's Word.

Respected sister, Simple's not making up things. What he's doing is rejecting the presupposed notions many of us take into AQ in our quest to understand it. Lets not forget that Allah doesn't disdain from using mathalan to teach us lessons (2/26).


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These were dietary laws for the Jews in order to test them. Much like their test with the she-camel. Much like their test with the cow. It is to discern the faithful from the hypocrites.

The only way for us to corroborate this is through history, a big no-no when it comes to Quranic study.


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Kyle:The God does not expect us to blindly believe some commandment, PROOF is required for all that we do. Why would the God command only a section of mankind to not eat the fat of an animal? What about the NON jews of that time period? Was the God condoning sectarinism?

Quite right. 'jew' is an interjected sunni term. AQ is about our lives now, not about a religious sect thousands of years ago.


mquran

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Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2006, 10:28:34 AM »
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Enquirer :Easy peoples. I must say that simples' method of translation is one of the better methods on the forum...(relatively speaking.) Taking the quran literally results in many contradictions and problems...The chopping of hands,whippings and sticks turning into snakes are just a few examples of what happens with literalism...Sticking to literalism is a very perilous and harmful position... see 17:36

Show the contradictions. You've started a whole thread about this before, the believers totally rebutted you and now you're up with your lies again.


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When i first heard of people reading the quran without hadith
25 years ago, don't forget.

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i was unconvinced,then later when folks interpreted quran without 'literalism i was again unconvinced,

It's difficult to be convinced when you don't think about it.

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now im at the stage where i dont even feel we need a book or god to be decent people.....

A decent person actually doesn't accuse without evidence, or is that ok in your book?Of course, once one gives up Allah, one can do as one pleases. Please don't keep up the pretense of being decent, its nauseating.


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pps; i feel the excessive use/reliance upon grammer,linguistics and verbal forms can distort the message of many books...

Excessive LACK of knowledge is dangerous too.

soul2squeeze

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Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2006, 11:12:58 AM »
Peace MQuran

Allow me to rephrase my statement. It is my opinion that Bro Simple is making up new meanings for this aya that is not based on metaphor. According to Bro Simple himself, he uses the dictionary to find another meaning to the same words. Therefore, he's not using the same definitions, only using them metaphorically instead of literally - he is using a whole new set of definitions. In other words, he's not saying cow symbolizes something else... he's saying cow isn't even the right definition.

Finding metaphors and mithaal like you stated, is 100% fine and I have no problem with it. If he told me he believes the cow symbolizes something else, all of my posts would be totally different. He's telling me the word Al-Baqar is a verb that means to cut.

I may be completely wrong in my original hypothesis that this aya is talking about Jews and their dietary laws. But the only way to discuss it is thru looking at the words and the grammatical structures of them. This is why I asked for his definitions of those two crucial words. And when we established that these 2 words are not verbs but are nouns, then according to him the quran was modified. That basically ends the debate with me, because we both must take the quran to be without error as a given for us to discuss anything in it. Or else anything I say will just be thrown out as a modification. It's completely fine if this is his belief. I would have liked to see a more fruitful discussion breaking down all the words in the aya instead of stopping at just those two... but it's better to leave it alone if it has the potential to create bad feelings between folks.

Just wanted to clarify my position.

Peace all


soul2squeeze

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Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2006, 11:20:50 AM »
Peace

Just another note so that nobody misunderstands me: I also believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with searching for all the possible meanings for each and every word in the quran. But it must fit into the quran properly and not awkwardly and we must always be aware of grammar so that we choose the exact definition. MUDARRIS: is it to teach, a school, a student, or an instructor? The only way to know is to understand grammar rules.

mquran

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Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2006, 11:25:46 AM »
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S2S:Allow me to rephrase my statement. It is my opinion that Bro Simple is making up new meanings for this aya that is not based on metaphor. According to Bro Simple himself, he uses the dictionary to find another meaning to the same words. Therefore, he's not using the same definitions, only using them metaphorically instead of literally - he is using a whole new set of definitions. In other words, he's not saying cow symbolizes something else... he's saying cow isn't even the right definition.


Right, I take your point here and sadly I lack the linguistic resource to answer you.

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Finding metaphors and mithaal like you stated, is 100% fine and I have no problem with it. If he told me he believes the cow symbolizes something else, all of my posts would be totally different. He's telling me the word Al-Baqar is a verb that means to cut.

Right, clearly it's not a verb but a noun. You're right once again.



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I may be completely wrong in my original hypothesis that this aya is talking about Jews and their dietary laws. But the only way to discuss it is thru looking at the words and the grammatical structures of them. This is why I asked for his definitions of those two crucial words. And when we established that these 2 words are not verbs but are nouns, then according to him the quran was modified. That basically ends the debate with me, because we both must take the quran to be without error as a given for us to discuss anything in it. Or else anything I say will just be thrown out as a modification. It's completely fine if this is his belief. I would have liked to see a more fruitful discussion breaking down all the words in the aya instead of stopping at just those two... but it's better to leave it alone if it has the potential to create bad feelings between folks.

AQ lays out the groundwork, if you like, as a prelude to the exercise of understanding. 'Alladhina haadu' isn't used in AQ anywhere as a religious sect during the time of Musa. Further, to typologise such people according to their heritage is contrary to teachings of AQ.

I consider AQ error-free and if one's understanding is incorrect, contradictions will appear. Such has been the case with much of my understanding over the years in salaat, zakaat, hajj etc.

I will try to work on Simple's explanation once I obtain more linguistic resources.

shukran wa salam.

soul2squeeze

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Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2006, 11:38:36 AM »
Peace Bro

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I will try to work on Simple's explanation once I obtain more linguistic resources.

I would love to see your understanding and for all of us to work thru the aya step by step so that we can all raise our understanding to a new level.

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'Alladhina haadu' isn't used in AQ anywhere as a religious sect during the time of Musa. Further, to typologise such people according to their heritage is contrary to teachings of AQ.

Already, I see I made a huge assumption based on traditional interpretations of the quran. This is why it's great to go thru it slowly. Maybe I made a million wrong assumptions and Bro Simple's translation is more accurate. Maybe we're all wrong and it's something else. The only way to know is to humor me and go thru it one by one  :D

Peace  ;)

AhmedBahgat

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Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2006, 01:53:39 PM »
Salaams Br ahmed,

5:60
   Say: “Shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from God? Those whom God cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them apes and pigs and servants of evil. Those have a worst place and are more astray from the right path.”


What is this , a  metaphor - if so show me where it says its a metaphor - and don't say of things what Allah doesn't say of them.

 ;D

Salaams.

Peace bro

Who said that it is a metaphor, you?

Well the verse for me is never a metaphor, I believe Allah cursed some of the jews to monkeys and pigs, I believe Allah in anything He says, He told me 35 times in the Quran that He is able to do anything

Was that the answer you were expecting?

Salam

AhmedBahgat

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Re: Fat forbidden for the jews,was it realy?
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2006, 02:01:26 PM »
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AB:bro the Quran is not about finding new conspets for the verses and I can see that is what you only do really

Quote from: mquran
Salaamun alaikum,

Salam bro

Quote from: mquran
You're right. It's not about finding new concepts for the verses. It's about finding out original concepts of AQ and this is what Simple is doing.

And how do you know that you will find the original context?

Well the original context is in the very same book that is still preserved in its original language

Quote from: mquran
I may not agree with all of his conclusions, but he's asking some very deconstructive questions.

well, I see simple and his likes falling under the following verse:

O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

[The Quran ; 5:41]

 يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ لاَ يَحْزُنكَ الَّذِينَ يُسَارِعُونَ فِي الْكُفْرِ مِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ آمَنَّا بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَلَمْ تُؤْمِن قُلُوبُهُمْ وَمِنَ الَّذِينَ هِادُواْ سَمَّاعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ سَمَّاعُونَ لِقَوْمٍ آخَرِينَ لَمْ يَأْتُوكَ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِن بَعْدِ مَوَاضِعِهِ يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَذَا فَخُذُوهُ وَإِن لَّمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُواْ وَمَن يُرِدِ اللّهُ فِتْنَتَهُ فَلَن تَمْلِكَ لَهُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئًا أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُرِدِ اللّهُ أَن يُطَهِّرَ قُلُوبَهُمْ لَهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيَا خِزْيٌ وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ (41)


-> See: ? they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts;?

Salam