Author Topic: The 2 witnesses in [2:282]  (Read 4126 times)

/*JM*/

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Re: The 2 witnesses in [2:282]
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2006, 09:49:00 AM »
I think God does not want to give the woman witness a negative characteristic like "dhalaal" or even "forgetness", so that it would be taken as a lable. So, let it be the testemony that lost its way to the woman; or that the woman is not doing this forgetness in purpose.


What do you mean by ?the testimony lost its way to the woman;? ?
I don?t understand.


As for the two verbs "tadhilla" and "tudhakkira", they are both in the "subjonctive" or with "fat7a", therefore "an" cannot be the conditional "in" as you well observed.
Understood.
But it is quite common to use this style, which means: (in case that the...gets lost=fi 7aalati an tadilla) the other will have to remind her: 3ala alukhra an tudhakkiraha).

I am sorry, but I don?t understand again.
Could you rephrase ? And give an example from the Quran of the grammatical structure you are talking about ?


Quote
We should also remember that this is a condition. If the testemony did not escape the woman, there is no need for another woman to remind her, and her testemony is accepted. This further means that a woman witness, even if testemony escapes her, this will not inavlidate her as a witness, unlike the case of male witness.


Could you rephrase ? I don't understand.


I mean, in case that the testimony of the woman is not lost (and therefore she remembered it), then there is no need for another woman to remind her. Her testimony is enough, since God gave a specific reason why two women are needed in this situation. It is also not ncessarily that ALL the testemony is lost, just a part of it remebered by one woman is acceptable and the other part remembered by the other woman is also acceptable; but in the case of men here, if the man forgets part of his testimony, then it is all void.

What happens if there are 2 males witnesses, and that one of them lose his testimony ? Can the other witness remind him ?

Peace

AhmedBahgat

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Re: The 2 witnesses in [2:282]
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2006, 02:02:48 PM »
Hello

Actually the verse is inclining that it may be the case of the women period, under this circumstances I believe the women body is not really as stable as it should be I guess her mental mind will be affected too

so it is quite possibe that the verse means if one of them got the period,

Just a thought and a conjecture

Salam

AhmedBahgat

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Re: The 2 witnesses in [2:282]
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2006, 03:03:30 PM »
bro jm

can you tell us what are you trying to link exactly between 2:282 and 49:9?

thanks
The grammatical structure in-fa is good in [49:9] whereas it seems to me weird in [2:282].

Salam


And if two parties of the believers quarrel, make peace between them; but if one of them acts wrongfully towards the other, fight that which acts wrongfully until it returns to Allah's command; but if it returns, make peace between them with justice and act equitably; surely Allah loves those who act equitably.

[The Quran ; 49:9]

 وَإِن طَائِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُوا فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الْأُخْرَى فَقَاتِلُوا الَّتِي تَبْغِي حَتَّى تَفِيءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ فَإِن فَاءتْ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا بِالْعَدْلِ وَأَقْسِطُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ (9)

-> The grammar structure in both is 100% perfect , in 49:9 the ?Fa In? is a start of a new sentence that is why we have the Fa, the Quran used the Fa many times at the start of new sentence that can be dealt totally independent from the previous sentence, in here the first sentence is ? وَإِن طَائِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُوا فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا?, i.e. ? And if two parties of the believers quarrel, make peace between them;?, can you see the semi colon used in the English translation?, now the next sentence can be totally independent from the previous one, regarding Grammar, ? فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الْأُخْرَى فَقَاتِلُوا الَّتِي تَبْغِي حَتَّى تَفِيءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ?, i.e. ? but if one of them acts wrongfully towards the other, fight that which acts wrongfully until it returns to Allah's command;?, and ?Fa In? is  translated as ?BUT IF? and I believe that it is very accurate translation, this is obvious from the next sentence that also can be dealt interdentally from  the previous sentence hence we have a semi colon after this sentence and the new one will also start with ?Fa In? , ?But if?, as we can see :? فَإِن فَاءتْ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا بِالْعَدْلِ?, i.e. ? ; but if it returns, make peace between them with justice and act equitably;?, so the Fa before the In is like the Wa to break long sentences.

In 2:282, it is a totally different story, we don?t see the Fa in front of In, therefore we can?t break the sentence at the ?In:

O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.

[The Quran ; 2:282]

 يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا تَدَايَنتُم بِدَيْنٍ إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُب بَّيْنَكُمْ كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلاَ يَأْبَ كَاتِبٌ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلِ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلاَ يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا فَإن كَانَ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهًا أَوْ ضَعِيفًا أَوْ لاَ يَسْتَطِيعُ أَن يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ من رِّجَالِكُمْ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى وَلاَ يَأْبَ الشُّهَدَاء إِذَا مَا دُعُواْ وَلاَ تَسْأَمُوْاْ أَن تَكْتُبُوْهُ صَغِيرًا أَو كَبِيرًا إِلَى أَجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ أَقْسَطُ عِندَ اللّهِ وَأَقْومُ لِلشَّهَادَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَرْتَابُواْ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَلاَّ تَكْتُبُوهَا وَأَشْهِدُوْاْ إِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلاَ يُضَآرَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلاَ شَهِيدٌ وَإِن تَفْعَلُواْ فَإِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ (282)

-> See: ? فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى?, i.e. then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other;?, the words starting from ? أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا? i.e. ? so that if one of the two errs?, can?t be separated from the words before it because we don?t see a Fa, in fact ? so that if one of the two errs? is the reason for selecting two women witnesses instead of one man, this is obvious from the Arabic word ?In? which was translated as ?So That?, i.e. we can?t add a Fa before In because what after In is very much connected to what before In as the reason to what was before In, and the connection word is ?In?

Salam

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Re: The 2 witnesses in [2:282]
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2006, 01:51:12 AM »
Salaam JM

Quote
I think God does not want to give the woman witness a negative characteristic like "dhalaal" or even "forgetness", so that it would be taken as a lable. So, let it be the testemony that lost its way to the woman; or that the woman is not doing this forgetness in purpose.



What do you mean by ?the testimony lost its way to the woman;? ?
I don?t understand.

I know this is "clumsy" English, but I was trying to "literally" explain an Arabic expression which does not exist in English. An example of an analogical expression is: I like this, which translates in Arabic as: ya3jibuni haatha. Notice that in English "I" is subject whereas it is "direct object" in Arabic (the suffixed pronoun i).
In lisnul 3arab, under "Dalla":

Dalla:  forget (literally: if remembrance escapes him). An example given to that: verse: 20:52: "laa yDillu rabbi wa la yansa; best translated in French (as it has a similar construction to Arabic): rien ne l'echappe.
Some scholars relate the first "i7daahuma" to "memory f." other than to testemony.

However, there is even a better explanantion which is : each of the two "i7daahunna" refers to each of the two women, to give the understanding that each of them (the women) may forget a different part of the testemony and each will remind the other. This definitely is different from: one woman forgets, the other reminds her (taDillu i7daahuma fa tudhakkiruha alukhra). It is mutual forgetting and reminding.

Quote
We should also remember that this is a condition. If the testemony did not escape the woman, there is no need for another woman to remind her, and her testemony is accepted.
Could you rephrase ? I don't understand

This is a specific situation: written agreements, loans, business transactions..not really women domain in general. But what if a woman is specialized in these matters? The probability of her forgetting anything is equal to the probability of a man having the same problem, therefore she would not need another woman to remind her, and her testemony is equal to that of a man.

God explained exactly why in this case two women maybe needed, so there is no basis of generalising this situation and applying it to other testemonies, on false or non-substantiated grounds of women being deficient in their minds (and religion), or that they are moody because of their menses..etc etc; things you read in "fiqh" books to justify women subordination.

In verse: 24:6-9 the testemony of the woman is not only equal to that of the man, but it overrules it. Can we generalize that? No. Because this is also a specific situation.

Quote
What happens if there are 2 males witnesses, and that one of them lose his testimony ? Can the other witness remind him ?


No. God did not give them this privilige. The testemony is not valid

Quote
Could you give an example from the Quran of the grammatical structure you are talking about ?


I tried my best, but I couldn't find an example of a similar grammatical structure in the Qur'aan. If someone can help, please do.


Samia

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Re: The 2 witnesses in [2:282]
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2006, 01:00:18 PM »
Salaam

I asked my sister about this verse, and she explained to me that "an taDilla" is best translated as "lest she forgets". And she gave me examples of this expression in the following verses:

1. 6: 70; 155-156
2. 11: 12




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Re: The 2 witnesses in [2:282]
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2006, 12:50:16 AM »
-> The grammar structure in both is 100% perfect , in 49:9 the ?Fa In? is a start of a new sentence that is why we have the Fa, the Quran used the Fa many times at the start of new sentence that can be dealt totally independent from the previous sentence, in here the first sentence is ? وَإِن طَائِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُوا فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا?, i.e. ? And if two parties of the believers quarrel, make peace between them;?, can you see the semi colon used in the English translation?, now the next sentence can be totally independent from the previous one, regarding Grammar, ? فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الْأُخْرَى فَقَاتِلُوا الَّتِي تَبْغِي حَتَّى تَفِيءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ?, i.e. ? but if one of them acts wrongfully towards the other, fight that which acts wrongfully until it returns to Allah's command;?, and ?Fa In? is  translated as ?BUT IF? and I believe that it is very accurate translation, this is obvious from the next sentence that also can be dealt interdentally from  the previous sentence hence we have a semi colon after this sentence and the new one will also start with ?Fa In? , ?But if?, as we can see :? فَإِن فَاءتْ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا بِالْعَدْلِ?, i.e. ? ; but if it returns, make peace between them with justice and act equitably;?, so the Fa before the In is like the Wa to break long sentences.

OK.

In 2:282, it is a totally different story, we don?t see the Fa in front of In, therefore we can?t break the sentence at the ?In:

-> See: ? فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى?, i.e. then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other;?, the words starting from ? أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا? i.e. ? so that if one of the two errs?, can?t be separated from the words before it because we don?t see a Fa, in fact ? so that if one of the two errs? is the reason for selecting two women witnesses instead of one man, this is obvious from the Arabic word ?In? which was translated as ?So That?, i.e. we can?t add a Fa before In because what after In is very much connected to what before In as the reason to what was before In, and the connection word is ?In?

What you are saying is strange. You say : in which was translated by "So That", but, though I see "So That" in the translation, I don?t see the in in Arabic ; instead, I see a an.

Anyway, I guess you have not understood my question.

an tadilla ihdahuma fa tuthakkira ihdahuma al-okhra is translated by "So that if one of the two forgets/is lost , then one of the two reminds the other".

My question is : Where is the "if" (in Arabic, in) ?

If you have a look at [49:9], you will see the in is there.

Peace

/*JM*/

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Re: The 2 witnesses in [2:282]
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2006, 04:49:46 AM »
Salaam JM

Quote
I think God does not want to give the woman witness a negative characteristic like "dhalaal" or even "forgetness", so that it would be taken as a lable. So, let it be the testemony that lost its way to the woman; or that the woman is not doing this forgetness in purpose.



What do you mean by ?the testimony lost its way to the woman;? ?
I don?t understand.

I know this is "clumsy" English, but I was trying to "literally" explain an Arabic expression which does not exist in English. An example of an analogical expression is: I like this, which translates in Arabic as: ya3jibuni haatha. Notice that in English "I" is subject whereas it is "direct object" in Arabic (the suffixed pronoun i).


I am sorry, but I don?t understand. You know, I am only a beginner in Arabic.
What is the verb in ya3jibuni ? could you write it with Arabic letters ?



In lisnul 3arab, under "Dalla":
Dalla:  forget (literally: if remembrance escapes him). An example given to that: verse: 20:52: "laa yDillu rabbi wa la yansa; best translated in French (as it has a similar construction to Arabic): rien ne l'echappe.

According to Lane, dalla can mean
i) He was, or became confounded, or perplexed, and unable to see its right course
ii) It became lost, it perished, came to nought, or passed away.
See http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000081.pdf

Maybe dalla can mean "he has forgotten" (if lisan al arab says that, it should be true) ; but let?s look at la yadillu rabbee walayansa in [20:52] :

Here is the usual translation of this part of the verse:

la = not
yadillu = he errs
rabbee = my lord
wa = and
la = not
yansa = he forgets

Which gives : "my lord does not err (dalla) and does not forget (yansa)"

Assuming dalla = "he has forgotten", would you translate this verse by "my lord does not forget (dalla)  and does not forget (yansa)"?

NB : All translators have rendered yansa by ?he forgets? ; however, I don?t know where they have got this.
This word writes: يَنْسَى.
Can someone tell me what is the last letter?
It looks like a ي (yaa) Without the 2 dots below.
And what is the verb ?
Is it what we can see in Lane (http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000287.pdf) under the root Nun-Siin-Waw ?

Some scholars relate the first "i7daahuma" to "memory f." other than to testemony.
Which scholars ?

However, there is even a better explanantion which is : each of the two "i7daahunna" refers to each of the two women, to give the understanding that each of them (the women) may forget a different part of the testemony and each will remind the other. This definitely is different from: one woman forgets, the other reminds her (taDillu i7daahuma fa tudhakkiruha alukhra). It is mutual forgetting and reminding.

In this explanation, the 2 women remain each other.
But, why is it a better explanation than ?one woman remain the other? ?


Quote
We should also remember that this is a condition. If the testemony did not escape the woman, there is no need for another woman to remind her, and her testemony is accepted.
Could you rephrase ? I don't understand

This is a specific situation: written agreements, loans, business transactions..not really women domain in general. But what if a woman is specialized in these matters? The probability of her forgetting anything is equal to the probability of a man having the same problem, therefore she would not need another woman to remind her, and her testemony is equal to that of a man.

God explained exactly why in this case two women maybe needed, so there is no basis of generalising this situation and applying it to other testemonies, on false or non-substantiated grounds of women being deficient in their minds (and religion), or that they are moody because of their menses..etc etc; things you read in "fiqh" books to justify women subordination.

In verse: 24:6-9 the testemony of the woman is not only equal to that of the man, but it overrules it. Can we generalize that? No. Because this is also a specific situation.

OK, so, your explanation for the need of 2 women in place of a man is that business transactions should not be women?s domain (the women have a different role in society than men).
It is the same explanation as here: http://www.quranicteachings.co.uk/witness.htm

I think the explanation of free-minds (women can be incapacitated) is false. What is your opinion?
cf http://www.free-minds.org/women/2to1.htm


Quote
What happens if there are 2 males witnesses, and that one of them lose his testimony ? Can the other witness remind him ?


No. God did not give them this privilige. The testemony is not valid

There is something I perhaps don?t understand.
What is the utility of the testimonies?


Quote
Could you give an example from the Quran of the grammatical structure you are talking about ?


I tried my best, but I couldn't find an example of a similar grammatical structure in the Qur'aan. If someone can help, please do.

OK
Salaam

I asked my sister about this verse, and she explained to me that "an taDilla" is best translated as "lest she forgets". And she gave me examples of this expression in the following verses:

1. 6: 70; 155-156
2. 11: 12

Interesting idea !
It would give : "Lest one of the two forgets/is lost , then (in that case) one of the two reminds the other".

But, in this case, is the subjunctive in tuthakkira still justified ?

Many thanks for your research

Peace


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Re: The 2 witnesses in [2:282]
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2006, 12:46:48 AM »
This word writes: يَنْسَى.
Can someone tell me what is the last letter?
It looks like a ي (yaa) Without the 2 dots below.

Peace JM,

It is a alif maqsuura.

A yaa? written without any dots is sometimes used to represent the sound of the long vowel aa. This job is usually done by the ?alif, which is the next letter we will deal with. But in some cases ? and this happens only at the end of a word ? a yaa? without dots is used instead of 'alif. In Arabic grammar the yaa? without dots at the end of a word is called 'alif maqsuura. Literally, this means "shortened 'alif", and is so called because the sound aa, normally a long vowel, is then pronounced short.
http://pistolero.unilang.org/arabe/yaa.html

Peace

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Re: The 2 witnesses in [2:282]
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2006, 02:28:21 AM »
Salaam JM
Sorry for the belated response

Quote
I am sorry, but I don?t understand. You know, I am only a beginner in Arabic.
What is the verb in ya3jibuni ? could you write it with Arabic letters ?


يعجبني

Quote
Some scholars relate the first "i7daahuma" to "memory f." other than to testemony.

Which scholars ?

Oٍne or two of the classic interpreters. Do you want a name/s? If yes, I will post it. I do not remember it now.

Quote
However, there is even a better explanantion which is : each of the two "i7daahunna" refers to each of the two women, to give the understanding that each of them (the women) may forget a different part of the testemony and each will remind the other. This definitely is different from: one woman forgets, the other reminds her (taDillu i7daahuma fa tudhakkiruha alukhra). It is mutual forgetting and reminding.


In this explanation, the 2 women remain each other.
But, why is it a better explanation than ?one woman remain the other? ?

Because it is direct. We do not have to (presume) things or (guess) which "i7dahunna" belongs to whom.

Quote
Interesting idea !
It would give : "Lest one of the two forgets/is lost , then (in that case) one of the two reminds the other".

But, in this case, is the subjunctive in tuthakkira still justified ?


Well, either we subject (tudhakkira) to the human grammar and find a reason for putting the verb in the subjunctive, like saying (fa 3alal alukhraun tudhakkiraha: فعلى الأخرى أن تذكرها), or just presume that our grammarians have not grasped all the grammar in the qur'aan, and that not all the rules of the subjunctive verbs, for example, have been understood.

Quote
This word writes: يَنْسَى.
Can someone tell me what is the last letter?
It looks like a ي (yaa) Without the 2 dots below.
And what is the verb ?

It is pronounced like the alif. It is always a final letter. It occurs in prepositions (على ، إلى ، حتى ) , nouns (هدى ، تقوى ) in which case it is a marker of the feminie like the taa' marbuta, and in verbs (ينسى يرضى ) indicating that in the perfect form or when deriving any other word from them and it this letter is no more final, it will change into ya (نسيان رضيت ).