Author Topic: inshallah...or...yasha allahu?  (Read 2418 times)

serenity

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inshallah...or...yasha allahu?
« on: June 11, 2006, 01:21:59 AM »
sorry....its me again (i have so many questions....but will limit to this one and the other one i already asked)

Everyone says "insha allah" when they mean "if God wills",
but the other day i found these verses:

"and never say about anything, "Behold, I shall do this tomorrow" (18:23)

"without (adding], "if God so wills." [33] And if thou shouldst forget [thyself at the time, and become aware of it later], call thy Sustainer to mind and say: "I pray that my Sustainer guide me, even closer than this, to a consciousness of what is right!" (18:24)

the arabic words for Gods will, seems to be...."yashaa allahu"

is this right?....or is it the same as insha allah?.

Another thing that struck me about this verse, is that it is a beautiful example of God giving detail (He even tells us what to say if we forget to say "if God wills"....and the sunnis claim its not detailed enough!)

aisha  :peace:

"I'm afraid that God is speaking...but no-one is listening"

ayman

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Re: inshallah...or...yasha allahu?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2006, 08:57:30 AM »
Peace Aisha,

sorry....its me again (i have so many questions....but will limit to this one and the other one i already asked)
Everyone says "insha allah" when they mean "if God wills",
but the other day i found these verses:
"and never say about anything, "Behold, I shall do this tomorrow" (18:23)
"without (adding], "if God so wills." [33] And if thou shouldst forget [thyself at the time, and become aware of it later], call thy Sustainer to mind and say: "I pray that my Sustainer guide me, even closer than this, to a consciousness of what is right!" (18:24)
the arabic words for Gods will, seems to be...."yashaa allahu"
is this right?....or is it the same as insha allah?.
Another thing that struck me about this verse, is that it is a beautiful example of God giving detail (He even tells us what to say if we forget to say "if God wills"....and the sunnis claim its not detailed enough!)

This is a very good question. I asked the same question several years ago:

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/freechoice.htm

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

serenity

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Re: inshallah...or...yasha allahu?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2006, 01:23:49 PM »
salaamun alaikum

that was brilliant Ayman....thank you so much for that.
I have in fact, just been talking about this with my sons, and i was saying that God is specific, and that we should not decide that "oh, its just a little change, it doesnt matter"

Thank you :-)
"I'm afraid that God is speaking...but no-one is listening"

Samia

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Re: inshallah...or...yasha allahu?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2006, 01:21:19 AM »
Salam

I read the link Aymen referred to. I liked the article, however, I disagree with the following:

"Unlike the logically precise Arabic of the Quran, English has no easy means of distinguishing a hypothetical IF-condition from a counterfactual IF-condition".

In fact, English has three kinds of "IF's"; and they are referred to as IF 1, IF2 and If 3. Examoles of these:

IF1: If X happens, Y will occur. (normal, high probability)
IF2: If X happened, Y would follow (impossible, just a dream, as in if I lived in the seventh century).
IF3: If X had happened, y would have occured (too late. Was probable in the past but not anymore, as in: if I had listened to your advice, I wouldn't have been in this trouble).

As for Arabic, the difference between these probabilities (conditional sentences) does not lie within the verb tense, but within the word used for "IF":  There are three articles: "law", "itha" and "in".

"law" is used in translating IF" and IF3.  "itha" and "in" are translations for IF1. Yet there is a slight difference. "in" is more conditional than "itha". "itha" indicates a logical outcome as in: itha tuthakir tanja7: if you study you succeed. "in", on the other hand, indicates a different relation between both parts of the sentence, where the second part controlls the first, not the other way round.
And Allah is more Knowledgeable.

ayman

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Re: inshallah...or...yasha allahu?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2006, 04:16:33 PM »
Peace Samia and Serenity,

Quote from: Serenity
that was brilliant Ayman....thank you so much for that.
I have in fact, just been talking about this with my sons, and i was saying that God is specific, and that we should not decide that "oh, its just a little change, it doesnt matter"

Thank your for the kind remarks. Anything good in the article is due to The God and the amazing logic of His great reading. I only deserve credits for mistakes (and I know there are several).

Quote from: Samia
I read the link Aymen referred to. I liked the article, however, I disagree with the following:
"Unlike the logically precise Arabic of the Quran, English has no easy means of distinguishing a hypothetical IF-condition from a counterfactual IF-condition".
In fact, English has three kinds of "IF's"; and they are referred to as IF 1, IF2 and If 3. Examoles of these:
IF1: If X happens, Y will occur. (normal, high probability)
IF2: If X happened, Y would follow (impossible, just a dream, as in if I lived in the seventh century).
IF3: If X had happened, y would have occured (too late. Was probable in the past but not anymore, as in: if I had listened to your advice, I wouldn't have been in this trouble).
As for Arabic, the difference between these probabilities (conditional sentences) does not lie within the verb tense, but within the word used for "IF":  There are three articles: "law", "itha" and "in".
"law" is used in translating IF" and IF3.  "itha" and "in" are translations for IF1. Yet there is a slight difference. "in" is more conditional than "itha". "itha" indicates a logical outcome as in: itha tuthakir tanja7: if you study you succeed. "in", on the other hand, indicates a different relation between both parts of the sentence, where the second part controlls the first, not the other way round.
And Allah is more Knowledgeable.

Thank you for your comment. I agree that some things need to be revised in the article because this was written a long time ago and my understanding has evolved since then. I agree that there are ways to denote the counterfactual in English. This doesn't have anything with "IF". It has to do with the conjugation of the verb. So without using "IF" you can say "Had I listened to your advice, I wouldn't have been in this trouble". IF is redundant and it is normally not used.

I also agree that IN and ITH are different. ITH denotes "when" not "if" so there is a chronological dependency. Those two mostly mean the same thing even in English. However, there is as you said a subtle difference. I had corrected this in the article by adding another section at the end on ITH but I forgot to take the part at the beginning that says that IN and ITH are similar.

At any rate, I agree with you that the article needs some revisions but the main points remain valid.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman