Author Topic: The holy valley of Tawa  (Read 9041 times)

AhmedBahgat

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Re: The holy valley of Tawa
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2006, 03:04:04 PM »
Brother Tay

Are you going to answer my question or not?, it seems that it is me who answers questions all the time, here is my querstion again for the record:

please, do you think 16:74 is connected to 16:75 & 16:76?

before you give an answer, let me remind you with the start of each one:

16:74 "Fa La Taddribo Lillah Alamathal..."

16:75 "Daraba Allahu Mathalan..."

16:76 "Wa Daraba Allahu Mathalan..."

Cheers

Lobster

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Re: The holy valley of Tawa
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2006, 03:43:15 PM »
peace

the definition of speak:
To utter words or articulate sounds with ordinary speech modulation; talk.
Quote
frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication



now if you can see "frankly they may", then good

"Case is closed"
So Ahmed,
you can either believe that they actually talked using human words, or it is a symbol for a method of communication humans don't understand or cannot be explained in simple words.

`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

'Phoenix! You are in Hot water, maybe you should change your name to Lobster.' - Khalil

AhmedBahgat

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Re: The holy valley of Tawa
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2006, 07:16:18 PM »
peace

the definition of speak:
To utter words or articulate sounds with ordinary speech modulation; talk.


This definition apply to humans and animals, and possibly other creatures on earth, it does not apply to Allah  if you don't mind

unless you prove to me that it does apply to Allah

frankly they may have not used any language at all and used a totally differnt method of communication

So Ahmed,
you can either believe that they actually talked using human words, or it is a symbol for a method of communication humans don't understand or cannot be explained in simple words.


yep and I won't speculate or promote any conjectures regarding what method of communication they used, simply I don't know, but you guys seems to know a lot of things, oh yeh 17:36 made you know a alot, Haha

cheers

Tay

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Re: The holy valley of Tawa
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2006, 07:20:35 PM »
Peace Ahmed,

I'm not trying to manipulate anything. Here is your quote, verbatim:

Quote
Thanks, but again please don?t try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end ? and used a totally different method of communication?, ...

Ok. So, you say "they may have", or maybe you mean "they definitely do", or maybe you mean, "more often than not", whatever. It's irrelevant. You're focusing on the wrong things bro.

The bottom line... do you believe that gases speak in any spoken language, ie, with words, yes or no?

If yes, then more power to you.
If no, then the ayah is symbolic, by the very definition of the word "symbolic".

As for your question, I answered it the first time you asked me.

Peace,
Tay
And you see the mountains, you think they are solid, while they are passing by like the clouds. The making of God who perfected everything. He is Expert over what you do. [27:88]

AhmedBahgat

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Re: The holy valley of Tawa
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2006, 07:30:20 PM »
Peace Ahmed,

Peace man

I'm not trying to manipulate anything. Here is your quote, verbatim:

Quote
Thanks, but again please don’t try to play with I said, if you notice that I said at the end ” and used a totally different method of communication”, ...

Ok. So, you say "they may have", or maybe you mean "they definitely do", or maybe you mean, "more often than not", whatever. It's irrelevant. You're focusing on the wrong things bro.


am i the one who is focusing on the wrong things, or it is you who is suggesting that the story is a symbol?, and ironically your suggestion is based that Allah told Moses to take off his shoes, who is focusing on non sense here bro?

The bottom line... do you believe that gases speak in any spoken language, ie, with words, yes or no?

i believe that anything that is created by Allah can speak however I can confirm that the bheaven and earth speak 100% because Allah talked to them as He told us, how they speak?, anything I say or anything you say is conjecture, but this does not make the story a symbol as you are pushing hard to do so

If yes, then more power to you.


I'm 100% sure about the heaven and earth but I only believe that anything that is created can speak the way it was designed to do so


If no, then the ayah is symbolic, by the very definition of the word "symbolic".

I didn't answer "Yes or "No", any answer is nothing but conjecture because Allah didn't specifically say that He talked to the gases, He only said that He talked to the heaven and earth in the verse, if you want to break the heaven down to its celestical objects then fine you can do that, I won't because  I don't try to prove Allah words, I take it for granted

As for your question, I answered it the first time you asked me.

Ok, it seems OI missed it, i will try to find it

Peace,
Tay


Salam

Tay

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Re: The holy valley of Tawa
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2006, 08:11:15 PM »
Peace Ahmed,

Quote
am i the one who is focusing on the wrong things, or it is you who is suggesting that the story is a symbol?, and ironically your suggestion is based that Allah told Moses to take off his shoes, who is focusing on non sense here bro?

I never mentioned anything about Moses or his shoes.

Quote
i believe that anything that is created by Allah can speak however I can confirm that the bheaven and earth speak 100% because Allah talked to them as He told us, how they speak?, anything I say or anything you say is conjecture, but this does not make the story a symbol as you are pushing hard to do so

God gave you eyes and ears and a brain. Have you ever seen a rock speak? Does a rock speaking make any sense to you? I'm sorry bro, but I am not trying to make this symbolic. It is symbolic. It seems that to you, if you admit that it is symbolic, it's equivalent to something terrible. I respect that and will carry this dialogue no further.

Peace be upon you brother,
Tay
And you see the mountains, you think they are solid, while they are passing by like the clouds. The making of God who perfected everything. He is Expert over what you do. [27:88]

AhmedBahgat

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Re: The holy valley of Tawa
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2006, 12:02:12 AM »
Peace Ahmed,

peace mate

Quote
am i the one who is focusing on the wrong things, or it is you who is suggesting that the story is a symbol?, and ironically your suggestion is based that Allah told Moses to take off his shoes, who is focusing on non sense here bro?

I never mentioned anything about Moses or his shoes.

ok, i'm sorry, it seems i got mixed up between you and Arnold, however you are sort of on the same approach which is making the verses a symbol if it does not make sense to the human sense and totally ignoring that the one who is saying the story is Allah and He telling us about affairs that happened between Him and His messengers

regadless of the lessons learnt from the story told, as long as Allah didn't say that it was a metaphor then saying it is a metaphor on behalf of Allah is exactly what 16:74 is warning  us from doing

Quote
i believe that anything that is created by Allah can speak however I can confirm that the bheaven and earth speak 100% because Allah talked to them as He told us, how they speak?, anything I say or anything you say is conjecture, but this does not make the story a symbol as you are pushing hard to do so

God gave you eyes and ears and a brain. Have you ever seen a rock speak?

no i have not, but what is the relevence of your question?

do you mean the earth is a rock and can't talk?

Does a rock speaking make any sense to you?

if Allah wants the rock to speak for a specific circumsances then He told me about it later, for God sake yeh it will make great sense to me, Allah told me in the Quran numerous times "Ina Allah Ala Kul Shai Qadir", "Allah is able to do anything"

I'm sorry bro, but I am not trying to make this symbolic. It is symbolic.

I'm sorry bro what you are proposing is a CLEAR CUT LIE because Allah never said it is symbolic, you are only following and promoting conjecrtures and lies, sorry again

It seems that to you, if you admit that it is symbolic, it's equivalent to something terrible.


not really if I say it is symbolic that it will be terrible, what is terrible and clear cut blasphemy is to say things on Allah behalf without being authored to do as such and without Him suggesting that what He said is as such

I respect that and will carry this dialogue no further.

respect is mutual here, if my words are a bit harsh, then I'm sorry, I'm implementing the method of the Quran to warn all humanity

Peace be upon you brother,
Tay

Take care man

Tay

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Re: The holy valley of Tawa
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2006, 05:15:31 AM »
Peace Ahmed,

Quote
it seems i got mixed up between you and Arnold, however you are sort of on the same approach which is making the verses a symbol if it does not make sense to the human sense and totally ignoring that the one who is saying the story is Allah and He telling us about affairs that happened between Him and His messengers

Brother, for the last time, I am not limiting or ignoring Allah's all-mighty abilities by calling something symbolic. In fact, I am doing exactly the opposite. By understanding that rocks and gases do not have vocal chords or mouths, I readily admit that they do not speak, but that Allah chose these words to describe a form of communication that we cannot understand. This is called symbolic, and there's no negative association to it.

Peace be upon you,
Tay
And you see the mountains, you think they are solid, while they are passing by like the clouds. The making of God who perfected everything. He is Expert over what you do. [27:88]

idolfree1

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Re: The holy valley of Tawa
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2006, 07:05:20 AM »
Peace be upon you,

Musa removed his shoes because the journey is within "tawa".

"We see you looking about he skies....." but instead the qibla is WITHIN, where "al masjid al haraam" is located. We should "face" it at ALL TIMES.

soul2squeeze

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Re: The holy valley of Tawa
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2006, 08:31:26 AM »
Peace be also upon you Idolfree1,

I loved this interpretation of the story of Moses when you posted it along with the help of bro arnoldyasin explaining some parts I couldn't get around at first. May God increase you both in knowledge!

Since there has been enough heated debate as to whether this verse can be taken as an allegory, I'll just leave it aside so as not to offend anyone's strong convictions on this issue.
Quote
We see you looking about he skies....." but instead the qibla is WITHIN, where "al masjid al haraam" is located. We should "face" it at ALL TIMES.

If I'm not mistaken, I think you are referring to:

[2.144] Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.

This is a very perceptive interpretation of the issue of "qibla" but how does one turn one's face to "within"?

Peace all