Author Topic: To Ichepren : Belated Response - Is Al-Quraan for all Time  (Read 4793 times)

mquran

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Salaamun alaikum,

Ichepren, my apologies for the delayed response but I was only shown your response this morning:



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1. If you cannot answer the questions that I have listed in a way so as to make it certain when ex. ramadan is during the year, then how do you apply the quran's demands? The fact that you cannot answer any one of those questions is evidence enough that there is a problem.

The problem with your question is, you're unable to verify whether my inferred meaning is correct or otherwise. This is because the validity of your question is false.

Let us recap your position:

The Quran is irrelevant because we cannot reach an agreement as to the details of its message.

As per the above statement, I ask you:

Who is 'we' ? I don't know you let alone your credentials and vice-versa. Very few people know others in this forum in real life. Therefore, the 'we' in your proposition is very loose term indeed.

 

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2. If a book cannot be understood then it cannot be applied, regardless of the insistence on obedience. I think everyone here would like to be obedient to God, but if we cannot be certain as to what things mean then obediece is moot


Cannot be understood in absolute terms? Or just cannot be understood by yourself and those you consider part of the 'we' which you self-defined.


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3. You are right that separating laws and guidance is an illusion since part of the guidance are the laws. But that has never been my point. My point is that the Quran's guidance can be given irrespective of those laws, and perhaps the laws were only supposed to be followed by the people to whom the Quran was given b/c it was applicable to them and they could understand it.


Kindly provide evidence from al-quraan for this, the Quran's guidance can be given irrespective of laws.


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4. I am not saying that just b/c we don't agree on a topic that the Quran is wrong. I am saying that there is something disturbing to me about a book that claims to be clear but nobody can understand and thousands of sincere people have tried to understand. I am just pointing out the problem.

Once again, who is 'everybody' relative to the 'nobody can understand it'. You're pointing out a problem, sure, but is *a* problem or *your* problem?


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5. Generally, for everyone here who has a stance on what the Quran means by something, I think it might be  better to go at the questions from a position of "what it isn't" rather than trying to find one answer. The Arabic of the Quraish is not something that we cna easily trace back and know for definite what a term might have meant to them.


Really? Have you tried? Perhaps you can demonstrate what you have discovered?

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6. I also think that there is a fear of Quranic interpretation...sometimes we fear what a term might actually mean. Ex. what if those who their oaths possess are slaves and men could sleep with their slaves...what would that say about the Quran, our faith and God? I think this line of thinking infuses much discussion in this forum, regardless of whether we are talking about salat, fasting, hajj, the house, virgin births...everything weighs down on our conception of God and the Quran.


It's very nice of you to speak for 'us' but would you mind not delving into the subjective? I have no fear of what al-quraan means because I trust it. If you don't, do speak for yourself and not others. It's your right to reject.


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7. OK, a last point is that I am truly not saying that the Quran is irrelevant. It still moves me whenever I read it, but I also am confounded by verses that just don't seem to be applicable and after years of study and worry, I am sure that I am not the only one who would like an answer to some hot button questions.

Your personal proclivities is no business of mine. Lets stick to the discussion, shall we?

Danish

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Re: To Ichepren : Belated Response - Is Al-Quraan for all Time
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2006, 07:26:23 AM »

Ichepren, my apologies for the delayed response but I was only shown your response this morning:
There was really no need for creating another thread. Your response should have been appropriated in its original thread, delayed or not. Breaking up the flow of discussion in the manner presented, not only causes confusion but one has to revert back and forth other thread(s) from origin, unless the topic/subject is entirely different.

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The Quran is irrelevant because we cannot reach an agreement as to the details of its message.

As per the above statement, I ask you:

Who is 'we' ? I don't know you let alone your credentials and vice-versa. Very few people know others in this forum in real life. Therefore, the 'we' in your proposition is very loose term indeed.


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Cannot be understood in absolute terms? Or just cannot be understood by yourself and those you consider part of the 'we' which you self-defined.


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Once again, who is 'everybody' relative to the 'nobody can understand it'. You're pointing out a problem, sure, but is *a* problem or *your* problem?

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It's very nice of you to speak for 'us' but would you mind not delving into the subjective? I have no fear of what al-quraan means because I trust it. If you don't, do speak for yourself and not others. It's your right to reject.


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Your personal proclivities is no business of mine. Lets stick to the discussion, shall we?
These are the kind of 'statements' that gets degenerated and gradually becomes personal. Such unethical way of discussing matters is what makes me puke and 'hit and run'. So much for bellowing of 'moderated debates' (if that would genuinely work).

mquran

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Re: To Ichepren : Belated Response - Is Al-Quraan for all Time
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2006, 07:41:51 AM »

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Danish: There was really no need for creating another thread. Your response should have been appropriated in its original thread, delayed or not. Breaking up the flow of discussion in the manner presented, not only causes confusion but one has to revert back and forth other thread(s) from origin, unless the topic/subject is entirely different.

Agreed. I chose this route because it calls personally to the person at hand.

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These are the kind of 'statements' that gets degenerated and gradually becomes personal. Such unethical way of discussing matters is what makes me puke and 'hit and run'. So much for bellowing of 'moderated debates' (if that would genuinely work).

You said it accurately there. It makes YOU react in a certain way. To me, I keep my responses short and this what comes out. Do you feel everyone has respond like you? 'Your personal proclivities are no business of mine' can also be taken as a statement which shows respect for a person to believes as he wills.

As for 'bellowing' for moderated debates, not to worry Danish. I never expected any of you to accept anyway. You guys are here for one reason : to VENT. I was exceedingly polite to you the first time I addressed your 'essence of nature' position but you never responded anyway.

savage_carrot

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Re: To Ichepren : Belated Response - Is Al-Quraan for all Time
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2006, 07:46:51 AM »
Quote from: danish
These are the kind of 'statements' that gets degenerated and gradually becomes personal. Such unethical way of discussing matters is what makes me puke and 'hit and run'. So much for bellowing of 'moderated debates' (if that would genuinely work).
There is nothing wrong in asking questions that clarify the other's position. These are questions like: if someone say's 'we' believe...one would be justified and required to ask, who is 'we'. Secondly, if someone see's a problem in a book that they are unsure about, it is justified to ask, especially if the other does not see it there...is it a problem with you (read your perception) or is it a problem in the text. It is about how people choose to react to what they read really...not everyone reads it the same way.
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Danish

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Re: To Ichepren : Belated Response - Is Al-Quraan for all Time
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2006, 08:11:29 AM »
Nadia,

The statement below is mighty clear. There was absolutely no reason to brag about it and make a fuss out of it and deter the subject. Do you understand or are we now going to talk about 'perception' (what does 'we' mean here).

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The Quran is irrelevant because we cannot reach an agreement as to the details of its message.

As per the above statement, I ask you:

Who is 'we' ? I don't know you let alone your credentials and vice-versa. Very few people know others in this forum in real life. Therefore, the 'we' in your proposition is very loose term indeed.

Then he brings about his own statement as such below with a 'we' in it? Must I start questioning it? There is no significance to such unethical way of discussing and this has nothing to do with quran nor the subject at hand. Gee, if people can take my 'advice' or concerns to become defensive, then there's no point discussing anything.
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Your personal proclivities is no business of mine. Lets stick to the discussion, shall we?



savage_carrot

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Re: To Ichepren : Belated Response - Is Al-Quraan for all Time
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2006, 08:17:29 AM »
Peace Danish,

In my understanding, mquran is referring to the former 'we' that had been brought up as asking let's keep it to ourselves and not to others who may feel that way...to me, it seems that maybe a better understanding can be found if kept directly between the two instead of something like 'lots of people feel this way'. The latter we is quite apparent as it's just the two of them. I take your point about him wording it better, but I don't see major issues. Do 'we' agree on this much? :D
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

mquran

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Re: To Ichepren : Belated Response - Is Al-Quraan for all Time
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2006, 08:17:59 AM »
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Danish : Then he brings about his own statement as such below with a 'we' in it? Must I start questioning it? There is no significance to such unethical way of discussing and this has nothing to do with quran nor the subject at hand. Gee, if people can take my 'advice' or concerns to become defensive, then there's no point discussing anything.

Ichepren is welcome, nay encouraged to seek clarification for anything I say. Note: my 'we' isnt crucial to the debate and if you didn't figure this out, you're right, there's no point in discussing anything (with you) as too much time would be spent clarifying.


mquran

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Re: To Ichepren : Belated Response - Is Al-Quraan for all Time
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2006, 08:18:42 AM »

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Nadya:Do 'we' agree on this much

Better define the 'we' for Danish's convenience.

Danish

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Re: To Ichepren : Belated Response - Is Al-Quraan for all Time
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2006, 08:40:20 AM »
Quote from: danish
These are the kind of 'statements' that gets degenerated and gradually becomes personal. Such unethical way of discussing matters is what makes me puke and 'hit and run'. So much for bellowing of 'moderated debates' (if that would genuinely work).
There is nothing wrong in asking questions that clarify the other's position. These are questions like: if someone say's 'we' believe...one would be justified and required to ask, who is 'we'. Secondly, if someone see's a problem in a book that they are unsure about, it is justified to ask, especially if the other does not see it there...is it a problem with you (read your perception) or is it a problem in the text. It is about how people choose to react to what they read really...not everyone reads it the same way.

I somewhat agree with you, but check this out one last time as to where he bought that 'we' from:

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The Quran is irrelevant because we cannot reach an agreement as to the details of its message.

As per the above statement, I ask you:

Who is 'we' ? I don't know you let alone your credentials and vice-versa. Very few people know others in this forum in real life. Therefore, the 'we' in your proposition is very loose term indeed.

And then he further continues to vent out:
Quote from: mquran
Better define the 'we' for Danish's convenience.
Please, I don't expect to play around and discuss matters in such manners. He can't even understand the 'we' part, talk about discussing "Allah's Words". I am sorry to say, but its redundant, futile and baseless to discuss issues with mquran, period. He is truely very annoying. I shall pen out and leave him alone. >:(

savage_carrot

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Re: To Ichepren : Belated Response - Is Al-Quraan for all Time
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2006, 08:44:02 AM »
Quote from: Danish
Please, I don't expect to play around and discuss matters in such manners. He can't even understand the 'we' part, talk about discussing "Allah's Words". I am sorry to say, but its redundant, futile and baseless to discuss issues with mquran, period. He is truely very annoying. I shall pen out and leave him alone.
Fair enough, you guys have your differences. I can understand.
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.