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Reaction of great mufti of Egypt after Dahab bombings...

Started by Elke, May 11, 2006, 10:51:32 AM

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Elke

Peace all

CAIRO - Ali Gomaa, great mufti of Egypt, pled this weekend for the eradication of the islamist extremists who attack other Moslems. "They must be liquidated physically and fought with the maximum force (...) We should not sympathize with people whose hands are dirtied blood by moslem blood", he stated Sunday evening, during a seminar entitled "Islam: moderation and extremism ".
(translated from a French article in Lib?ration)

That much for moderation... eradication instead of education...
And what if they had killed "only" "non-muslim" tourists ?

elke
"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery ; none but ourselves can free our minds"
(Bob Marley, Redemption Song)

enquirer

Peace Elke and all. Sometimes its sad,as many 'scholars' in the 'muslim' world seem to be clueless and immature about the needs of humanity...They keep dividing humanity into muslim and non-muslim unjustly...Rather than just humanity,as one big family race...I think we should jail the 'extremists' to neutralise their violent actions,and then educate them so they can possibly be re-habilitated. Every innocent death,and/or innocent suffering causes me sadness and pain...The people who believe in human rights,can do a great service in educating,and practically helping the world to try to heal its suffering,which is caused by ignorance,intolerance,hate and greed.(and re-inforced by some religions,and various harmful philosophies.)
Peace all.

soul2squeeze

Peace

It's easy to say 'jail them and educate them' when you haven't lost your loved ones in a heinous crime against humanity.  With a murderer who killed in a fit of rage, this theory could work. With terrorists who are mass murderers, who leave scars in the hearts of those left behind to pick up the pieces of their fragmented families, it simply won't work. These murderers' minds have been polluted and damaged beyond repair. To kill 100s or 1000s or 1000000s of innocent lives takes a certain kind of diabolical twisted person who will have a very slim chance of ever seeing things the right way again.
I almost lost my father in the attacks of 9/11. Thank God he was one of the lucky few who was able to survive. My family has grieved for friends of the family whom my father has known for over 35 years ... now gone because of these terrorists you wish to educate.
And yet again the pain hit so close to home with the attacks in Dahab. Many of my close friends were enjoying a spring vacation there and suddenly landed in the hospital with injuries and a trauma neither you nor I could even come close to imagining. I'm traumatized because of the trauma they went thru! Imagine how they themselves feel now...not to mention the fear their families live in now.
And what about the ones who weren't as fortunate as my friends or father, who lost their lives so miserably? I wonder if their families would feel better if we rounded up the terrorists and told them "bad boy that's bad don't do that again" and hope that one day these low-lifes understand.
Moussaoui is an excellent example. Here is a man who has spent about 5 years in court spewing his garbage. After countless testimonies of victims of 9/11 crying their hearts out to him of how that day has forever changed their lives, he laughs in their faces, stares them straight in the eyes and says if he could kill Americans every day he would - if he had the chance to kill them himself he would - if he could turn back time and personally kill each and every victim's loved one who testified crying to him... he would.
Time and time again he has proved to the world his mind is forever altered. Some chemical reactions can alter a person's state of mind forever. Drug users are a great example. No matter how much rehab and education their logic will never be the same and this is fact. Perhaps killing 100s of people,or having the potential to kill 100s, creates the same chemical alteration in the brain.
I'm not saying your idea isn't good, it is. For the majority of murderers I 100% agree with you. For those who have the capablitiy to mass kill, if you ask me, they deserve a slow and painful death. It may sound horrible but what they did deserves it.
Please don't take this as an attack on you enquirer. I am passionate about this topic only because it's hit so close to home. But I in no way mean to disrespect you. Please forgive me if it came out too strong. I highly respect your opinion, in fact I somehow wish my eyes never saw what I saw so that I could be able to reach the same conclusion as you.
Peace

enquirer

Peace soul2squeeze. I sympathise with your story...It must be very traumatic to deal with such an event...
I myself have not been through such a trauma,so my previous post is just my general opinion...
In england there have been a few recent examples where parents have had their children murdered,and said that they 'forgave' the killers because of their christian beliefs. (the killers were caught and jailed.)
Maybe different people react differently to the trauma of loss and death...
I myself was very upset when the 7-7 bombings occured in london. ( i have a friend in london,he thankfully escaped un-hurt.) But i dont know if i would want retribution in the form of the death penalty,and definately not torture...
Peace,and take it easy... ps; my mother and sisters were near the twin-towers about a week before the attacks...

soul2squeeze

Peace Enquirer
Thanks for your kind words.
I would add also that education is necessary, but in my opinion only as a means of prevention against further terrorism. We have a serious problem in the "muslim(?)world" today. Propaganda disguised as real news and real scholarly academic information has penetrated so deeply in many of these societies that many average joes in these countries find no problem spewing hateful and horrific comments around like "americans deserved it. british deserved it. i'm happy it happened. they should do more". Happy it happened???  ???
This can only be combated thru a long process of opening the doors of ijtihad not only in understanding deen but in everything. these doors have been sealed shut. no ijtihad can be found today in these countries in media, nor universities, nor any other realm in charge of disseminating "facts" to the general public. So in that sense a serious re-education needs to take place so that new generations can arrive at more rational and peaceful views of the world around them.
As for different people reacting to loss and death (i would say more like murder)... hmm i agree with you as I stated before. A person killing one person in a fit of rage can very likely be re-habilitated and go thru remorse for what his hands have committed. A person master-minding 1000s of deaths i just don't see as having a chance for rehab. in fact it may do society more harm to keep him around. Plus if i were a blind-folded young man living in a cave in kabul with my multi-millionaire leader telling me to "do this to get your 72 virgins", the threat of being jailed and "educated" may not deter me too much. Just my thoughts again..
Peace

enquirer

Peace soul2squeeze. You have hit upon a very important point...Traditional islam is in desperate need of  new ijtihad and reform...A lot of the 'literalist' interpretations and old islamic traditions need to be re-examined and revised....However i have found,personally speaking,that many  people are adverse to change and reform,or get stuck just short of real reform...
I think islam needs a humanistic reform to contribute,and integrate in modern society....I think we have to distinguish between the 'timeless' morals,the 'contextual' rules,and the harmful misinterpretations...
Peace.  Ps; i do dislike it immensely when people say the uk deserved it,or the US deserved it....Education,patience and negation of harmful practices are indeed needed in this quest for  new ijtihad...

mquran

QuotePeace soul2squeeze. You have hit upon a very important point...Traditional islam is in desperate need of  new ijtihad and reform...A lot of the 'literalist' interpretations and old islamic traditions need to be re-examined and revised....

I would ask this politician-wannabe (with his 'slogans minus substance' formula) WHAT literalist interpretation he has a problem with and by what measure?


QuoteHowever i have found,personally speaking,that many  people are adverse to change and reform,or get stuck just short of real reform...

If you're the one advocating the reform, can you blame them?

QuoteI think islam needs a humanistic reform to contribute,and integrate in modern society....

So 'modern society' is your criteria? Why choose this criteria at all? What's special about 'modernity' ?


QuoteI think we have to distinguish between the 'timeless' morals,the 'contextual' rules,and the harmful misinterpretations...

What's harmful ? The only thing Al-islaam is harmful to is zulm/oppression.


QuotePeace.  Ps; i do dislike it immensely when people say the uk deserved it,or the US deserved it....Education,patience and negation of harmful practices are indeed needed in this quest for  new ijtihad...

No innocent person deserves to be the victim of a terrorist attack. However, if you equate Al-islaam with terrorist tendencies, you need another 25 years of study.

soul2squeeze

Peace Mquran and Enquirer

Mquran: I don't know if you were directing this idea of ijtihad in deen at me or enquirer, but as for my opinion, I most certainly do not equate terrorism with Islam with a capital 'i'. islam with a small 'i' is a different story. The interpretations of quranic ayat made by conventional muslim "scholars", as well as faulty hadith that justifies the killing of innocents is dangerous. People have construed the quran and added other texts to gain their cheap gain in this life. A re-opening of the doors of ijtihad to rightfully restore the true peaceful and harmonious meanings of the quran is necessary for the muslim world to be able to move forward with the rest of mankind. Also, science, the pursuit of knowledge and understanding is commanded by us in the quran.  We need to focus on these commandments to step up to the plate and contribute to society as other cultures have. Of course, economics and world politics plays a significant role in modernizing a country, but the education of citizens is a good place to start. And by modernization I do not equate West per se with modernization. By no means has the West reached the level of a civilized and free mind that the quran offers, a mentality of equality, no oppression, and a co-existence with the rest of the world.

And enquirer, as stated above I agree with you that we are in desperate need of reform, but is it to change Islam or to restore it?
Peace

enquirer

Peace soul2squeeze. I think the distinction between change or restore may not be necessary...I think it is clear that reform is needed....Its not just the followers of hadith that justify harm to society...
As to what original islam was,it would be quite interesting if yourself,or others stated what they think the 'original' islamic ideals are/were...
Peace.ps; obviously my views on quran are well known,my interest is on reform to benefit society in a peaceful,positive way,not to restore every ideal from islamic history...

soul2squeeze

Peace Enquirer
Actually I think it is a big difference between change and restoration. I believe the true essence of al-quran is the right guidance. If our understanding of a civilized co-existence today (vis-a-vis the west's understanding of it) correlates with the true guidance of quran, that's fine but to alter parts of the quran in order to fit our understanding of how civilization should be is out of the question. Who is to say that the West's or anyone else's ideals are right anyway?

Let me ask you this: So if there is something for example the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights Convention came up with that goes against quranic teachings, do we change quran in order to fit it or do we evolve our minds to accept its teachings and change the standards of human rights for that which is better for us?
I think this is a key point. If we are to tackle society's issues with an understanding that our needs are paramount to anything the quran dictates, then we should simply live our lives without caring about deen and leave God's book alone.  Why should we change the book to make ourselves feel better?

However, if we want to re-evaluate our ideas of society in relation to the quranic ideals/laws, then what is necessary is restoration of the true essence of Islam and not the changing or distortion of it.
When I say restoration, I certainly don't mean 'islamic history', but rather the restoration of the real meaning of islam. whether that was ever implemented in history is a different story.
Peace