Author Topic: An ant knows name of a person? A bird knows name of a city?  (Read 4657 times)

OracleMir

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An ant knows name of a person? A bird knows name of a city?
« on: April 20, 2006, 11:56:09 PM »
Few facts that could be derived from 27:18, 27:22-24

* An ant is aware of human being's name "Soloman"
* An ant is aware that an "army" of humans are approaching them
* An ant is aware that the army can "unintentionally" kill them
* A bird knows the city name "Sheba"
* A bird knows that the city Sheba is ruled by a "woman"
* A bird knows that the ruler has "great throne"
* A bird noticed that people of Sheba were "prostrating to sun"
* A bird also knows that "devil" has made the people prostrate to the sun

I am confused! 

I would think that an ant's brain is not smart enough to recognize a person by name and birds are not smart enough to recognize the name of a city, let alone recognizing the fact that people are worshiping Sun etc.

Am I looking at this from a wrong prospective?

I dont mind a Jinn bringing a thrown 27:39 because I am not sure what jinn's are.  But I am having confusion accepting the above mentioned facts about ant and bird because we know what ants and birds are.  They are certainly not capable of this intelligence.  Or are they? Perhaps after 100 years we would find out that an ant and a hoopoe has higher intelligence?  What are the chances for that happening?

There has to be some other explanation to this.

God help me understand this.

27:18   Until they came to a valley of ants, a female ant said: "O ants, enter your homes else you will be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they do not notice."
27:22   But the hoopoe did not stay away long, then he said: "I have seen what you do not know, and I have come to you from Sheba with news which is certain."
27:23   "I found them ruled by a woman, and she was given all possession, and she had a great throne."
27:24   "And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their work appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided."
OracleMir
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And follow not that of which you have no knowledge. Verily hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each one of you will be questioned - Quran

AhmedBahgat

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Hello

I believe it is commonly known that the intelligence of any being is not based on how big their brain is rather how big heir brain is compared to the size of their body, therefore an ant or a bird may actually be very smart

Also you are missing that all these creatures already are submitters to Allah, i.e. they have no will regarding the belief in Allah:

   
Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as Allah shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for Allah carries out all that He wills.

[The Quran ; 22:18]

 أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَسْجُدُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ وَالشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ وَالنُّجُومُ وَالْجِبَالُ وَالشَّجَرُ وَالدَّوَابُّ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنَ النَّاسِ وَكَثِيرٌ حَقَّ عَلَيْهِ الْعَذَابُ وَمَن يُهِنِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِن مُّكْرِمٍ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاء (18)

-> The Arabic word ?Dawab? does not really means ?Animals?, it actually means animals birds and insects, i.e. any creature that is not human but walks on earth, the above verse is clearly telling us that everything worship Allah except humans:? Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind??, see, every thing except humans, (only the majority of humans worship Allah), this means the ants and birds are forced to worship Allah, unlike the humans who have freewill to do so.

In fact these creatures even know their Salat and their Tasbih:

Do you not see that Allah is He Whom do glorify all those who are in the heavens and the earth, and the (very) birds with expanded wings? He knows the prayer of each one and its glorification, and Allah is Cognizant of what they do.

[The Quran ; 24:41]

 أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يُسَبِّحُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَالطَّيْرُ صَافَّاتٍ كُلٌّ قَدْ عَلِمَ صَلَاتَهُ وَتَسْبِيحَهُ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِمَا يَفْعَلُونَ (41)


The problem for humans that they can?t understand the way these creatures do it:

The seven heavens declare His glory and the earth (too), and those who are in them; and there is not a single thing but glorifies Him with His praise, but you do not understand their glorification; surely He is Forbearing, Forgiving.

[The Quran ;17:44]

 تُسَبِّحُ لَهُ السَّمَاوَاتُ السَّبْعُ وَالأَرْضُ وَمَن فِيهِنَّ وَإِن مِّن شَيْءٍ إِلاَّ يُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدَهِ وَلَكِن لاَّ تَفْقَهُونَ تَسْبِيحَهُمْ إِنَّهُ كَانَ حَلِيمًا غَفُورًا (44)


Therefore it is not fair to say that the ants and the birds are dumb creatures, in fact I watch ants a lot and found that they are very smart indeed, birds too proved to be very smart, some of the birds can even talk like humans and some animals even understand what human say like dogs and cats and may others

Suleiman however  was blessed to know the languages of these creatures and some of them were deployed for his service, one of the birds (which is a believer in Allah already as I explained before) saw the Queen of Sheba and her people worshipping the sun, and I don?t think for a bird that Already knows that Allah exists and worship Him will fail to recognise their flaw

Regarding the bird knowing the name of location, well I thinks bird even travel for thousands of mils and some how they know their way, it seems birds have global navigation system in the heads, pigeons are good example

Peace

simple

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Re: An ant knows name of a person? A bird knows name of a city?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2006, 10:23:12 AM »
Namalatun-(generic) : A person of the tribe of  al-namal,a namlite.People of the valley of Namal.

Name of  a valley situated between jibrin and Asqalan a town on the sea coast 12 miles to the north of Gaza,in Sinai and Namlah is the name of the tribe living there.
Namal means a clever man.The name is also given to a child in whose hands an ant is placed at his birth,because it was considered such a child would be wise and intelligent.

So the word  Al-Naml does not mean valley full of ants,as is sometimes misunderstood,but the valley where the tribe named namal lived.


All the rest are the same all mistrans - i think/believe.

Salaams.

OracleMir

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Thank you both AhmedBahgat and "simple" for taking out time to answer my question.

AhmedBahgat, I can see from the verses you have quoted that animals do perform salaats.  There must be some deep meaning in that; I am unable to comprehend at this point.  When I was a kid I used to have lots of pigeons, ducks, cats, and what not. I do acknowledge that animals posses some unexplainable powers like navigation system, communication at group level etc, but I cannot see how my pigeon would know me by name and how my pigeon would know the name of the city I live in.  I have seen a parrot that would recite Quran but  I am sure that parrot does not understand the meaning of the words he is uttering. I will keep on pondering these verses and others; perhaps I will receive some insight.

"simple", your explanation certainly seems plausible.  That would take care of the ants issue.  But the fact that hopoe knows the city name and other details remains there.

Thanks...
OracleMir
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And follow not that of which you have no knowledge. Verily hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each one of you will be questioned - Quran

simple

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Re: An ant knows name of a person? A bird knows name of a city?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2006, 04:19:44 PM »
Salaams Br,

just a helping hand......

Normal translation:

And he inspected (TAFAQADA)the birds(ALTAEER), then said: "Why do I not see the hoopoe(ALHUDHUD), or is he among those absent? I will punish him severely, or I will kill him, else he should have an evident excuse.But the hoopoe did not stay away long, then he said: "I have seen what you do not know, and I have come to you from Sheba with news which is certain." 27:20-22

Do you guys think that, Solomon literally spoke to them? Or, perhaps, this is a metaphor?

No i think its all a mistranslation fraud:

TAFAQADA=to review/make an inquisition into/search out things lost or missed/inspect
ALTAEER= Cause of good or evil/action of a man -good or bad.
ALHUDHUD=proper name of a responsible officer in the army of king solomon.

So:

And he made an inspection , then said: "Why do I not see THE OFFICER, or is he among those absent? I will punish him severely, or I will kill him, else he should have an evident excuse.But the officer did not stay away long, then he said: "I have seen what you do not know, and I have come to you from Sheba with news which is certain." 27:20-22

As far as i can see all the other places can be simerlarly worked out,where the birds and the jinns accur.

But it is a lot of time waster.

I think anybody can do it and should using the Q.D and The Lanes and i am sure there are others as well..


OracleMir

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Re: An ant knows name of a person? A bird knows name of a city?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2006, 11:35:00 AM »
Salaams Br,
No i think its all a mistranslation fraud:

TAFAQADA=to review/make an inquisition into/search out things lost or missed/inspect
ALTAEER= Cause of good or evil/action of a man -good or bad.
ALHUDHUD=proper name of a responsible officer in the army of king solomon.
Salams "simple"

Thanks for helping me trying to understand this.

The problem will be resolved if the word "alhudhud" is refering to a person and not to a bird. 

My mother tongue is Urdu.  In Urdu hudhud means hoopoe (bird).  Urdu has deep roots in Arabic so I am sure in Arabic alhudhud means hoopoe as well.  What evidence do we have to support that alhuhud was name of an officer?  Or are we reverse engineering and saying this because this is the only way we could explain things?  Please elaborate.  Thanks in advance.

OracleMir
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And follow not that of which you have no knowledge. Verily hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each one of you will be questioned - Quran

simple

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Re: An ant knows name of a person? A bird knows name of a city?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2006, 02:30:36 PM »
Salaams Br,

Sher khan ?

Sher zaman ?

and i think Br. Layth once said ,

Layth = Lion.

People do use names of animals aswell to my knowledge Br.

May "He" Bless us all.

agentxxx

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Re: An ant knows name of a person? A bird knows name of a city?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2006, 02:07:53 PM »
peace OM,

brother check this link.
http://www.tafsir.com/Default.asp
and select sura 27.
peace.
KIND WORDS AND THE COVERING OF FAULTS ARE BETTER THAN CHARITY FOLLOWED BY INJURY.[2:263]
DO YE ENJOIN RIGHT CONDUCT ON THE PEOPLE, and FORGET (TO PRACTICE IT) YOURSELVES, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?.2:44.

Arnold Yasin

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Re: An ant knows name of a person? A bird knows name of a city?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2006, 02:18:37 PM »
Peace

27:16. Solomon was heir to David, and he said: "O people, we have been taught the language of Tair, and have been given of everything. This is a clear favour indeed."
17. His armies of jinns(nomads/tribes, people from out of direct society/not seen/rarely seen societies) and men and Tair assembled, formed into ranks, (and marched)
18. Till they reached the Valley of Naml. Said the lady of Naml: "O Naml, go into your dwellings lest Solomon and his hordes should crush you unawares."
19. (Solomon) smiled, amused at her speech, and said: "O Lord grant me that I should be grateful for the favours You have bestowed on me and my parents, and do good things of Your pleasing; and admit me among Your righteous devotees by Your grace."


The story of the ants and the bird is simple if people would have looked a bit further. Since words have more then one meaning or background it is interesting what people choose sometimes, and have a distorted idea of a meaning. The arabic naml, means ants, BUT was also the name of a tribe in Syria, even ibn Kathir who is so wrong on 80% of his explanations on the Quran, noted this fact. In his tafseer, he identifies, namlat, the lady of Naml, as belonging to the tribe of Banu Shisan. So it is the tribe that was scared of Solomon's army, which is more logical. Also on the story of the 'bird' that comes in the verses after that, the arabic word hud-hud, means hoopoe, BUT again was also the name of a South Yemen tribe, and men were often named after their tribes as well as birds. Tair is commonly used for birds, but is also applied to winged beings, yet tayyar means fleet-flooted horse, and at-tairan is metaphorically used for marching to jihad. When Solomon says that they had been taught the language of tair, he uses the word mantiq which is used for HUMAN speech, and man alone of all created beings is called haivani-natiq, speaking animal, the language of birds is called saut. The intention behind the use of tair, as of jinn cannot be disregarded. The Tair were a conquered tribe or race and David and Solomon had knowledge of their language. Similarly jinns applies here to the nomadic tribes many of whom were recruited by the king of Tyre for Solomon, see the Bible, chapter Kings 1,5. So they were called not seen ones, because they came from a land and people that were not seen normally. So it refers to where they come from, not the direct situation of if they were seen or not seen at that moment by Solomon and his people. So there country and people are jinn for Solomon and his people, making them called jinns. Hud-hud here is significant because it is known in old records that it was the name of a prince of Midian in the days of Solomon, and some records say he was even the brother of the queen of Sheba. It was by the hand of Hud-hud that brought the letter to Sheba, and he was the one who brought the throne to Solomon, here we have to understand that in the Quran, all the thrones mentioned is used symbolic, as with the Throne of God, meaning the Power/authority of God, same is here, where Solomon was brought knowledge about the 'power', or as to say how her government, how her power was in her kingdom. This is also with the throne of Yousouf, where he put his parents on, they were honored by living in luxury through Yousouf's power in Egypt, and they bowed for him, meaning out of respect.

27: 20. When he reviewed the Tair, he said: "How is it I do not see Hud-hud? Is he absent?
21. I will punish him severely, or cut his throat, unless he bring a valid excuse."
22. But he was not long in coming, and reported: "I have been around where you have not been. I come from Saba with positive news. [?..]
27. (Solomon) said: 'We shall see if you speak the truth or you are a liar.
28. Take this letter from me, and deliver it to them and withdraw, then see what reply they give in return."[?.]
36. So, when the envoys came to Solomon he said: "Do you wish to increase my wealth? Yet what God has given me is better than what He has given you. No. Be gratified in your present.
37. Go back to them. We shall soon come with our armies which they will not be able to face. We shall drive them out of (the land) with ignominy, and they will be humbled."
38. He (then) said (to his courtiers): "O you nobles, is there any one who can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"
39. A crafty jinn (intelligent person/tribesman/person (part of direct) not seen (society)) said: "I will bring it before you rise from your seat, for I am strong and trustworthy."
40. But one who had knowledge of the letter, said: "I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye." When Solomon saw it before him, (he said): "This is by the grace of my Lord that He may test me whether I am grateful or I am thankless. Yet if one is grateful, he is grateful for himself, and if one is thankless, then surely my Lord is unconcerned and magnanimous."
41. (Turning to his nobles) he said: "Change the appearance of her throne. Let us see if she is rightly guided, or is not guided at all."


/*JM*/

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Re: An ant knows name of a person? A bird knows name of a city?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2006, 12:46:29 PM »
The explanations of Muhammad Ali are interesting too
cf http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch027.pdf

Peace