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Armed Conflict, Violence, and the Quran

Started by Fahad, March 30, 2006, 01:32:14 PM

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Fahad

peace.

Quote from: "oneway"
Quote from: "saladin"can the moderators please add red faced emoticon ?

No red faces here, friends. :smile:

I obviously agree that fighting is sometimes necessary and even just.

All I said was that the Quran endorses violence. You've confirmed that for me. Thanks!

so do u agree that the Koranic rules of fighting are just .

QuoteThe question of whether the "Koranic rules of fighting" you extracted from that one verse apply to all verses in the Quran that deal with violence is fodder for another debate.

tell us if u can find any other rules in the Koran.

here are some other veres from the Koran that lay down the rules . these rules cover all the fighting mentioned in the Koran .

Koran's call for peace:

[60:8-9] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.
GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

[4:90] ........ Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

When does Koran permit fighting:

[22:39] Permission is granted to those who are being persecuted, to fight , and GOD is certainly able to support them.
[ 22:40] They were evicted from their homes unjustly, for no reason other than saying, "Our Lord is GOD." If it were not for GOD's supporting of some people against others, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and masjids - where the name of GOD is commemorated frequently - would have been destroyed. Absolutely, GOD supports those who support Him. GOD is Powerful, Almighty.
[ 22:41] They are those who, if we appointed them as rulers on earth, they would establish the Salat and the Zakat, and would advocate righteousness and forbid evil. GOD is the ultimate ruler.

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

Fighting in the cause of God:

[ 4:74-75] Those who readily fight in the cause of GOD are those who forsake this world in favor of the Hereafter. Whoever fights in the cause of GOD, then gets killed, or attains victory, we will surely grant him a great recompense. Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring: "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master."

do u find these rules unjust ? what do u say now ?

QuoteI think many of them leave lots of room for interpretation that many Muslims clearly aren't interpreting the way you are.

u dont judge a religion by its followers , right ?   :wink:

peace.
[url=http://takhlees.blogspot.com/]Takhlees[/url] - [url=http://www.takhlees.blogspot.com]www.takhlees.blogspot.com[/url]

Arnold Yasin

Peace ,

Nice try oneway, but that verse is proven to be translated wrong. Daraba means to hit, to depart and so on. That they chosen to hit, out of the 20 different words they could have chosen, tells more about the translators not the Quran. If you follow the verses closely, you see the next verse talks about splitting up or not, and the Quran never endorses sin, so the word, and is also only the logical one, means to leave. The first 2 advises are used to resolve the issue, and then suddenly you can hit the woman?

No. clearly this word means to depart. First you talk, then you leave each other alone, then as a last resort you leave. If you want to talk about violence and discrimination of women, we can also have a nice look about the Bible. But here read this before you say anything:

http://www.free-minds.org/women/beating.htm

And:
BEATING WOMEN, OR BEATING AROUND THE BUSH, OR....

Edip Yuksel
 
 
"Verse 4:34 of the Quran orders believers to beat their wives; so, Islam is a male dominant religion." Many of us have heard this criticism from Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc. Personally, every time I read 4:34, I felt that something was wrong. How does God, the Most Wise order us to beat our women? What kind of solution is that? It is in contrast to the verses in which God describes marriage:    
 

"Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think." (30:21)
Obviously, this mixed messages have bothered many contemporary translators of the Quran. To avoid the moral and intellectual problems, they tried to soften the word "beat" when they translate the verse 4:34. For instance, Yusuf Ali uses a merciful parentheses after "beat" to save women:    
 
". . . As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly). . ." (4:34)
Many tried to "beat" around the bush to "beat" the problem generated by the "beat" of 4:34.  
When I finished the Turkish translation (1991), this verse was on the top of my orange list to study carefully. Whenever I encounter a problem regarding the understanding of a Quranic verse, I remember 20:114 and pray accordingly: "Most Exalted is God, the only true King. Do not rush into (understanding) the Quran before it is revealed to you, an say, 'My Lord, increase my knowledge.'"    

Almost all of the translations have mistranslated the four key words or terms of this particular verse. These are: "Qawwamune," "Faddallallahu ba'dahum ala ba'd," "Nushuzehunne," and "Fadribuhunne."  In our late book,  "Errors in Turkish Translations" (Istanbul, 1992) we have discussed the real meaning of these words and the motivation and reasons for mistranslating them. Here, we will focus on the last word, "Fadribuhunne."  

A Famous Multi-Meaning Word    

The problem comes from the word "Idribuhunne" which we used to translate as "beat them". The root of this word is "DaRaBa". If you look at any Arabic dictionary you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. That list is one of the longest list in whole Arabic dictionary. It can be said that "DaRaBa" is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.    
 

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273  
To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4  
To beat: 8:50; 47:27  
To set up: 43:58; 57:13  
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11  
To take away, to ignore: 43:5  
To condemn: 2:61  
To seal, to draw over: 18:11  
To cover: 24:31  
To explain: 13:17  
As you see, in Quran alone we can witness the verb "DaRaBa" having at least ten different meanings. "DaRaBa" has also other meanings which are not mentioned in the Quran. For example, in the Arabic language, you  do not print money--you "DaRaBa" money, you do not multiply numbers--you "DaRaBa" numbers,  you do not cease the work--you "DaRaBa" the work. In Turkish we have many verbs similar to DaRaBa, such as "tutmak", "calmak", "vurmak" etc. In English we have two verbs which are almost equivalent to "DaRaBa". These are  "strike" and "beat".    
Webster's Dictionary gives fourteen meanings to the verb "strike": hit (against); ignite; (of snake) bite; (of plants) (cause to) take root; attack; hook (fish); sound (time) as bell in clock etc.; affect; arrive at, come upon; enter mind of; discover (gold, oil etc.); dismantle, remove; make (coin); cease work as protest or to make demands. The same dictionary gives eight  meanings to the verb "beat": strike repeatedly; overcome; surpass; stir vigorously with striking action; flap (wings); make, wear (path); throb;  sail against wind.    

In the beginning of this article (underlined) I deliberately used "beat" in three different meanings in a single statement just to show the variety of meanings in a single word. In English, when we order someone to "beat it" we mean "get out". Similarly in Arabic, when we order someone with the commend form of "DaRaBa", that is  "iDRiB", we mean "get out".  

How Can We Find The Appropriate Meaning  

When we encounter a multi-meaning word, we select the proper  meaning according to the context, forms, and common sense. For instance, if we had have translated "DaRaBa" in 13:17 as "beat" instead of "explain", the meaning would be ridiculous:    
. . .  God thus beats the truth and falsehood." (13:17)  

Another example of mistranslation of "DaRaBa" can be found in the translation of 38:44. All the translations (except Dr. Khalifa's translation) inject a male-made story to justify their silly translation. Here is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse about Job:  
 

"And take in the hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not (the oath)."
Yusuf Ali, in the footnote narrates the traditional story: "He (Job) must have said in his haste to the woman that he would beat her: he is asked now to correct her with only a wisp of grass, to show that he was gentle and humble as well as patient and constant."  
However, without injecting this story, we can translate it as the following:  
 

"Now, you shall travel the land to fulfill your pledge (that is to deliver the message)." We found him steadfast. What a good servant! He was a submitter. (38:44)
Let's turn back to 4:34    
Additionally, the word "Nushuz" which is generally translated as "opposition" has another meaning which can be translated as degrees of disloyalty ranging from flirtation to sexual liaison. If we study 4:34 carefully we will find a clue that leads us to translate that word as "flirting or cheating" or "extramarital affair" (Any word or words that reflect the range of disloyalty in marriage). The clue is the phrase before "Nushuz" as reads: ". . . and observe God's commandments, even when alone in their privacy." This phrase emphasizes the importance of loyalty in marriage life.    

Furthermore, the same word "Nushuz" is used in 4:128, but it is used to describe the misbehavior of husbands not wives as was in 4:34. So, the traditional translation of "Nushuz", that is, "opposition" will not fit here. In vertical relations, "opposition" cannot be a double-edged behavior. So, translators try to avoid this contradiction by ascribing  just the opposite meaning of "opposition", i.e., "oppression" in verse 4:128. However, the meaning of "Nushuz" as "disloyalty" is appropriate for both cases described in 4:34 and 4:128.  

A Coherent Understanding  

When we read 4:34 we should not understand "idribuhunne" as "beat those women". We must  remember that this word has many meanings. God gives us three ways of dealing with extra-marital-affair. In the beginning stage of such misbehavior husband should start from giving advice. If it does not work and she goes further and commit a proven adultery, that time husband has the right to strike them out (4:34 & 65:1).  

Let's present our suggestion for the translation of verse 4:34  
 

"Men traditionally take care of women, since God has endowed each of them with certain qualities and men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God) and during the absence (of their husband) they honor them according to God's commandment. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out. If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme." (4:34).
Beating women who are cheating is not an ultimate solution; but "striking them out" from your house is the best solution. And it is fair too.    

Peace

Fahad

why not create a seperate thread for the "wife beating" verse ? please let this thread be for "fighting" discussion . or u can search previous threads that discuss "wife beating" so it can be continued there ?

thanks.
[url=http://takhlees.blogspot.com/]Takhlees[/url] - [url=http://www.takhlees.blogspot.com]www.takhlees.blogspot.com[/url]

oneway

Greetings Arnold,

I'm going to bed now, but I will read your reply in detail later. Thanks for sharing it. Your posts are always very detailed and I do appreciate that.

Here's another perspective on the topic of 4:34 that goes into considerable detail on the authors' exegesis of that verse:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arlandson/beating.htm

Regards,
oneway

Quote from: "arnoldyasin"Peace ,

Nice try oneway, but that verse is proven to be translated wrong. Daraba means to hit, to depart and so on. That they chosen to hit, out of the 20 different words they could have chosen, tells more about the translators not the Quran. If you follow the verses closely, you see the next verse talks about splitting up or not, and the Quran never endorses sin, so the word, and is also only the logical one, means to leave. The first 2 advises are used to resolve the issue, and then suddenly you can hit the woman?

No. clearly this word means to depart. First you talk, then you leave each other alone, then as a last resort you leave. If you want to talk about violence and discrimination of women, we can also have a nice look about the Bible. But here read this before you say anything:

http://www.free-minds.org/women/beating.htm

And:
BEATING WOMEN, OR BEATING AROUND THE BUSH, OR....

Edip Yuksel
 
 
"Verse 4:34 of the Quran orders believers to beat their wives; so, Islam is a male dominant religion." Many of us have heard this criticism from Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc. Personally, every time I read 4:34, I felt that something was wrong. How does God, the Most Wise order us to beat our women? What kind of solution is that? It is in contrast to the verses in which God describes marriage:    
 

"Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think." (30:21)
Obviously, this mixed messages have bothered many contemporary translators of the Quran. To avoid the moral and intellectual problems, they tried to soften the word "beat" when they translate the verse 4:34. For instance, Yusuf Ali uses a merciful parentheses after "beat" to save women:    
 
". . . As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly). . ." (4:34)
Many tried to "beat" around the bush to "beat" the problem generated by the "beat" of 4:34.  
When I finished the Turkish translation (1991), this verse was on the top of my orange list to study carefully. Whenever I encounter a problem regarding the understanding of a Quranic verse, I remember 20:114 and pray accordingly: "Most Exalted is God, the only true King. Do not rush into (understanding) the Quran before it is revealed to you, an say, 'My Lord, increase my knowledge.'"    

Almost all of the translations have mistranslated the four key words or terms of this particular verse. These are: "Qawwamune," "Faddallallahu ba'dahum ala ba'd," "Nushuzehunne," and "Fadribuhunne."  In our late book,  "Errors in Turkish Translations" (Istanbul, 1992) we have discussed the real meaning of these words and the motivation and reasons for mistranslating them. Here, we will focus on the last word, "Fadribuhunne."  

A Famous Multi-Meaning Word    

The problem comes from the word "Idribuhunne" which we used to translate as "beat them". The root of this word is "DaRaBa". If you look at any Arabic dictionary you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. That list is one of the longest list in whole Arabic dictionary. It can be said that "DaRaBa" is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.    
 

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273  
To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4  
To beat: 8:50; 47:27  
To set up: 43:58; 57:13  
To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11  
To take away, to ignore: 43:5  
To condemn: 2:61  
To seal, to draw over: 18:11  
To cover: 24:31  
To explain: 13:17  
As you see, in Quran alone we can witness the verb "DaRaBa" having at least ten different meanings. "DaRaBa" has also other meanings which are not mentioned in the Quran. For example, in the Arabic language, you  do not print money--you "DaRaBa" money, you do not multiply numbers--you "DaRaBa" numbers,  you do not cease the work--you "DaRaBa" the work. In Turkish we have many verbs similar to DaRaBa, such as "tutmak", "calmak", "vurmak" etc. In English we have two verbs which are almost equivalent to "DaRaBa". These are  "strike" and "beat".    
Webster's Dictionary gives fourteen meanings to the verb "strike": hit (against); ignite; (of snake) bite; (of plants) (cause to) take root; attack; hook (fish); sound (time) as bell in clock etc.; affect; arrive at, come upon; enter mind of; discover (gold, oil etc.); dismantle, remove; make (coin); cease work as protest or to make demands. The same dictionary gives eight  meanings to the verb "beat": strike repeatedly; overcome; surpass; stir vigorously with striking action; flap (wings); make, wear (path); throb;  sail against wind.    

In the beginning of this article (underlined) I deliberately used "beat" in three different meanings in a single statement just to show the variety of meanings in a single word. In English, when we order someone to "beat it" we mean "get out". Similarly in Arabic, when we order someone with the commend form of "DaRaBa", that is  "iDRiB", we mean "get out".  

How Can We Find The Appropriate Meaning  

When we encounter a multi-meaning word, we select the proper  meaning according to the context, forms, and common sense. For instance, if we had have translated "DaRaBa" in 13:17 as "beat" instead of "explain", the meaning would be ridiculous:    
. . .  God thus beats the truth and falsehood." (13:17)  

Another example of mistranslation of "DaRaBa" can be found in the translation of 38:44. All the translations (except Dr. Khalifa's translation) inject a male-made story to justify their silly translation. Here is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse about Job:  
 

"And take in the hand a little grass, and strike therewith: and break not (the oath)."
Yusuf Ali, in the footnote narrates the traditional story: "He (Job) must have said in his haste to the woman that he would beat her: he is asked now to correct her with only a wisp of grass, to show that he was gentle and humble as well as patient and constant."  
However, without injecting this story, we can translate it as the following:  
 

"Now, you shall travel the land to fulfill your pledge (that is to deliver the message)." We found him steadfast. What a good servant! He was a submitter. (38:44)
Let's turn back to 4:34    
Additionally, the word "Nushuz" which is generally translated as "opposition" has another meaning which can be translated as degrees of disloyalty ranging from flirtation to sexual liaison. If we study 4:34 carefully we will find a clue that leads us to translate that word as "flirting or cheating" or "extramarital affair" (Any word or words that reflect the range of disloyalty in marriage). The clue is the phrase before "Nushuz" as reads: ". . . and observe God's commandments, even when alone in their privacy." This phrase emphasizes the importance of loyalty in marriage life.    

Furthermore, the same word "Nushuz" is used in 4:128, but it is used to describe the misbehavior of husbands not wives as was in 4:34. So, the traditional translation of "Nushuz", that is, "opposition" will not fit here. In vertical relations, "opposition" cannot be a double-edged behavior. So, translators try to avoid this contradiction by ascribing  just the opposite meaning of "opposition", i.e., "oppression" in verse 4:128. However, the meaning of "Nushuz" as "disloyalty" is appropriate for both cases described in 4:34 and 4:128.  

A Coherent Understanding  

When we read 4:34 we should not understand "idribuhunne" as "beat those women". We must  remember that this word has many meanings. God gives us three ways of dealing with extra-marital-affair. In the beginning stage of such misbehavior husband should start from giving advice. If it does not work and she goes further and commit a proven adultery, that time husband has the right to strike them out (4:34 & 65:1).  

Let's present our suggestion for the translation of verse 4:34  
 

"Men traditionally take care of women, since God has endowed each of them with certain qualities and men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God) and during the absence (of their husband) they honor them according to God's commandment. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out. If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme." (4:34).
Beating women who are cheating is not an ultimate solution; but "striking them out" from your house is the best solution. And it is fair too.    

Peace

Fahad

Quote from: "oneway"A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.

Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.

yes it does, when necessary . there is nothing wrong with it .you yourself admitted that sometimes violence is necessary .
[url=http://takhlees.blogspot.com/]Takhlees[/url] - [url=http://www.takhlees.blogspot.com]www.takhlees.blogspot.com[/url]

oneway

Quote from: "saladin"
Quote from: "oneway"A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.

Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.

yes it does, when necessary . there is nothing wrong with it .you yourself admitted that sometimes violence is necessary .

Violence, as in war or self defense, is sometimes necessary. Domestic violence, a man beating his wife, is never necessary.

Fahad

Quote from: "oneway"Violence, as in war or self defense, is sometimes necessary. Domestic violence, a man beating his wife, is never necessary.

so u dont have any problem with the 'fighting' verses any more ?
[url=http://takhlees.blogspot.com/]Takhlees[/url] - [url=http://www.takhlees.blogspot.com]www.takhlees.blogspot.com[/url]

savage_carrot

Quote from: "oneway"A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.

No, it doesn't get lost. It is only reiterated almost everytime you post. You believe in something as 'violent' as the Bible amongst other things and yet you have the audacity to call the quran 'violent' when you can't even prove it is not in self defence? If you were an atheist, it would have been understandable.

Quote from: "oneway"Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.

It endorses 'violence' in the exact same way you do. In self defence. Isn't that a surprise? Why is it an issue in the quran when you don't seem to have any qualms in following what you preach yourself?

Quote from: "oneway"So, now the question is whether or not these "Koranic rules of fighting" cover every instance where violence is mentioned in the Quran. I do not believe they do.

Please come up with each and every verse you think is violent, so that we can try to help you with this issue of 'violence' in the quran.

Quote from: "oneway"Generally, people often have applied misinterpretation to justify misdeeds. So people certainly are bad in that context. I think the verse above shows that the text is bad as well in this case.

The verse above is mistranslated. Any other verses that you would like to bring regarding 'violence'?

Peace.
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

Arnold Yasin

Sleep well Oneway,

What the people say of the link is just grasping every straw to beat the Quran with it. This is a language issue, not a theological issue. In the arabic several translations can be made with that verse, God commands us to take the best. Some dumn translators took the worst. In the context of the verses, only the understanding of to depart can apply. So this straw is made out of air....

Peace

ik75243

oneway

[6:151]  Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

[17:33]  You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped.


Be equal in your revenge; dont exceed.

[25:68]  They never implore beside GOD any other god, nor do they kill anyone - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.

[5:45]  And we decreed for them in it that: the life for the life, the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, and an equivalent injury for any injury. If one forfeits what is due to him as a charity, it will atone for his sins. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust.

Be equal in your revenge; dont exceed. Anyone who exceeds is unjust.

[7:28]  They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"


[5:32]  Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing.

Again, Life is sacred.

[2:190]  You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

[2:193]  You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

Can't be the first to fight.

[5:87]  O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.


you want it to be unfair and have a verse that says 'when someone tries to kill you do not do anything ! Let him kill you. For it is the only just way.'
and 'when someone tries to kill you, smile back at them and tell them how great they are.'

you want it be illogical ? stupid? you tell me what you'd do when someone tries to kill you, are you going to smile at him?

whats the point of this thread?

another words duh its violent, Quran is a guide; a way of life. A life you won't have if you don't retaliate against someone who tries to kill you !

What do you want the Quran to endorse?