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Armed Conflict, Violence, and the Quran

Started by Fahad, March 30, 2006, 01:32:14 PM

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Fahad

peace Oneway.
in your thread u posted the link http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2702 to Dave Miller's article about the "violent" verses of the Koran .

2:190-194 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than killng. And do not fight them at the restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers. And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked. What is done in the restricted month may be retaliated in the same month, and murder shall be punishable by execution. Whoever attacks you, then you shall attack him the same as he attacked you; and be aware of God, and know that God is with the righteous.

Remember the Koranic rules of fighting :

?   fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress
?   do not fight them at the restricted Temple unless they fight you in it;
?   If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked
?   Whoever attacks you, then you shall attack him the same as he attacked you

Keep these rules in mind while reading all the verses posted in Dave Miller?s article . then tell us if u still find the verses "violent" :



47:4 So, if you encounter those who have rejected, then strike their neck until you capture them, then bind them securely. Then you may either set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. And had God willed, He alone could have beaten them, but He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never let their deeds be put to waste.

2:216-217 Fighting has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; God knows while you do not know. They ask you about the restricted month: "Is there fighting in it?" Say: "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in Him, and at the restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than killing." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their work in this life and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally!

9:1-5  And a declaration from God and His messenger to the people on this day of the extended Pilgrimage: "That God and His messenger are innocent from all those who set-up partners." If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution. Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among those who have set-up partners if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous. So when the restricted months are passed, then you may kill those who have set-up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the salat, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful. And if any of those who have set-up partners seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctuary. This is because they are a people who do not know.

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[url=http://takhlees.blogspot.com/]Takhlees[/url] - [url=http://www.takhlees.blogspot.com]www.takhlees.blogspot.com[/url]

oneway

Quote from: "saladin"peace Oneway.
in your thread u posted the link http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2702 to Dave Miller's article about the "violent" verses of the Koran .

2:190-194 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than killng. And do not fight them at the restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the reward of the disbelievers. And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked. What is done in the restricted month may be retaliated in the same month, and murder shall be punishable by execution. Whoever attacks you, then you shall attack him the same as he attacked you; and be aware of God, and know that God is with the righteous.

Remember the Koranic rules of fighting :

?   fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress
?   do not fight them at the restricted Temple unless they fight you in it;
?   If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked
?   Whoever attacks you, then you shall attack him the same as he attacked you

Keep these rules in mind while reading all the verses posted in Dave Miller?s article . then tell us if u still find the verses "violent" :



47:4 So, if you encounter those who have rejected, then strike their neck until you capture them, then bind them securely. Then you may either set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. And had God willed, He alone could have beaten them, but He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never let their deeds be put to waste.

2:216-217 Fighting has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; God knows while you do not know. They ask you about the restricted month: "Is there fighting in it?" Say: "Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of God and to disbelieve in Him, and at the restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out is far greater with God, and persecution is worse than killing." And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their work in this life and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally!

9:1-5  And a declaration from God and His messenger to the people on this day of the extended Pilgrimage: "That God and His messenger are innocent from all those who set-up partners." If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution. Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among those who have set-up partners if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous. So when the restricted months are passed, then you may kill those who have set-up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the salat, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful. And if any of those who have set-up partners seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctuary. This is because they are a people who do not know.

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I think the author of that article laid out the case better than I could, but in response to your question, doesn't the fact that there exist "Koranic rules for fighting" prove that it endorses violence?

47:4 "So, if you encounter those who have rejected, then strike their neck until you capture them..."

Sure sounds violent to me.

Peace,
oneway.

Fahad

peace.

Quote from: "oneway"I think the author of that article laid out the case better than I could,

the author is relying on extra Koranic sources .

Quotebut in response to your question, doesn't the fact that there exist "Koranic rules for fighting" prove that it endorses violence?

only against those who fight u . and in like manner . whats wrong in it ? it is only allowed in self defence .

Quote47:4 "So, if you encounter those who have rejected, then strike their neck until you capture them..."

Sure sounds violent to me.

wouldnt they strike your neck , if u dont strike theirs ? this is self defence .

u are not keeping the rules in mind .

sometimes fighting becomes a necessity :

2:251 ..If God had not repelled some people by means of others, the earth would have been corrupted
[url=http://takhlees.blogspot.com/]Takhlees[/url] - [url=http://www.takhlees.blogspot.com]www.takhlees.blogspot.com[/url]

Lobster

peace oneway, all

fighting with guns and swords somtimes becomes necessary (for someone who supports the war in iraq, you should know this). I don't like violence, i'd rather find other means to solve my problems. But sometimes you have to do things you don't like. The quran never says we should carry guns with us everyday shooting people that don't agree with our beliefs.
`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

'Phoenix! You are in Hot water, maybe you should change your name to Lobster.' - Khalil

AhmedBahgat

Quote from: "phoenix1"peace oneway, all

fighting with guns and swords somtimes becomes necessary (for someone who supports the war in iraq, you should know this). I don't like violence, i'd rather find other means to solve my problems. But sometimes you have to do things you don't like. The quran never says we should carry guns with us everyday shooting people that don't agree with our beliefs.

Good point bro

I can imagine someone red faced

Fahad

can the moderators please add red faced emoticon ?
[url=http://takhlees.blogspot.com/]Takhlees[/url] - [url=http://www.takhlees.blogspot.com]www.takhlees.blogspot.com[/url]

oneway

Quote from: "saladin"can the moderators please add red faced emoticon ?

No red faces here, friends. :smile:

I obviously agree that fighting is sometimes necessary and even just.

All I said was that the Quran endorses violence. You've confirmed that for me. Thanks!

The question of whether the "Koranic rules of fighting" you extracted from that one verse apply to all verses in the Quran that deal with violence is fodder for another debate. I think many of them leave lots of room for interpretation that many Muslims clearly aren't interpreting the way you are.

Cheers,
oneway.

Lobster

peace oneway,

different interpretations exist for everything. doesn't mean every interpretation is right though.
and i don't get your position on this topic.
so the quran  endorses violence. is that a bad thing?
the quran says violence is necessary sometimes. And then it lays down some rules for us on how to fight. what is the harm in that?
`What lies before us and what lies behind us is nothing compared to what lies within us.` - Emerson

'Phoenix! You are in Hot water, maybe you should change your name to Lobster.' - Khalil

savage_carrot

Quote from: "oneway"All I said was that the Quran endorses violence.

So do you, your Bible and your country (it even endorses pre-emptive violence). What does that prove?

You can justify it any way you want to, and complain that the 'Muslims' are using it for 'terrorism', when in reality the quran endorses violence in self defence not any ole time you feel like chopping someone's head off for serving you bad tea.

Christians have been lopping off heads for the church, greed and corruption in days past using their Bible and other sordid tales to justify it. Did that make the people or the book 'bad'? Answer this. Are the people 'bad' or is a text 'bad'?

You can't blame it on the quran, especially since you can't even PROVE that it's any different than self defence and the verses in the entire quran speak a different story than the one you are 'used' to. You want to find something to blame for the 'terrorism', find a better reason.
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

oneway

Quote from: "savage_carrot"
Quote from: "oneway"All I said was that the Quran endorses violence.

So do you, your Bible and your country (it even endorses pre-emptive violence). What does that prove?

You can justify it any way you want to, and complain that the 'Muslims' are using it for 'terrorism', when in reality the quran endorses violence in self defence not any ole time you feel like chopping someone's head off for serving you bad tea.

Christians have been lopping off heads for the church, greed and corruption in days past using their Bible and other sordid tales to justify it. Did that make the people or the book 'bad'? Answer this. Are the people 'bad' or is a text 'bad'?

You can't blame it on the quran, especially since you can't even PROVE that it's any different than self defence and the verses in the entire quran speak a different story than the one you are 'used' to. You want to find something to blame for the 'terrorism', find a better reason.

A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.

Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.

So, now the question is whether or not these "Koranic rules of fighting" cover every instance where violence is mentioned in the Quran. I do not believe they do.

Here's one example:

4:34 Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

or from another translation:

4:34 Husbands should take full care of their wives, with [the bounties] God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands? absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.

The "Koranic rules of fighting" referenced earlier apply to warfare. Even if I grant you that they apply to all warfare related verses discussing violence in the Quran, they certainly don't relate to 4:34 which has nothing to do with warfare.

4:34 endorses domestic violence. Will you now argue that this is a just practice as well?

(editing to answer a direct question I did not answer when I first made this post)

You asked, "Are the people 'bad' or is a text 'bad'?"

Generally, people often have applied misinterpretation to justify misdeeds. So people certainly are bad in that context. I think the verse above shows that the text is bad as well in this case.

Regards,
oneway