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Dying in a state of kufr and shirk

Started by CavemanDoctor, March 08, 2006, 11:18:56 PM

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SarahY

Peace Everyone

I don't know what total loyalty to God means. is that even possible with human nature.Yes people believe God but the understanding of God is shaped by their beliefs from scriptures, experiences, upbringing etc.

Yes Jafar, death is the living fear but maybe not for one who thinks or rather believes they'd be promised paradise.

QuoteBy accepting death.. when the time comes.
And truly believe that you were, are and always will be in good hands.
By then you shall no longer have any fear
That's a nice way of looking at it. But I don't think the fear will escape. Maybe the heart will be a little contented.

QuoteThis is ridiculous, if a soul was put within a culture of X.
99% probability he/she will follow the culture of X.

Isn't that the point though... Be put in culture of x and see if you can handle accept and strive for truth.

Good logic makes a good point about accountability.

This is the dilemma we strive for good because it?s good for us, makes us humble, helps our brethren etc etc but also because of the fear of judgement day/hell/punishment and also because of the reward of paradise. Why strive for good if you?re going to be bound for hell or forbidden from it. So then is the good done in vain? So are we gambling our life or eternity in the hope we don?t commit shirk and have God?s mercy. Maybe so. May God have mercy on us!

Someone asked me how do I know I?m a ?true? believer (as in a mumina)? Do I think I?m going to heaven? Do I spend 51% or more of my living doing good. At this point all I can conclude is no-one can truly know but one will believe they are based on their understandings of what it constitutes. I think most of my day is on autopilot so can?t think/quantify that i?m spending more than 51% of my life doing specific good deeds but I don?t know if that?s a fair criteria but I can see why one may think if they spend 51%+  doing good then basically they?re guaranteed paradise.

Interesting about maghfira Novice, though guidance other than God = shirk seems abit too harsh or simplistic because don?t we all look for guidance elsewhere in one way or another? we don't have encyclopedias imprinted in our brains. Teachers guide students, people get tips, tricks and inspiration from others. People seek guidance/advice from family and friends in tough times, in anticipations to diff events, milestones etc, etc.

QuoteHow do you set up partners with Allah?

This is a good question Zulf.

Imrankhawaja
Quotewrong doing and sins always leave guilty feelings and its true and also  in every socitey wrong doing never encouraged
like rob,steal,rape,murder etc ..

Maybe but people also feel guilt for doing things they were taught were wrong but actually aren?t "wrong". e.g. not wearing a headscarf, shaving the beard off, wearing shorts, speaking against parents, listening to music, disagreeing with cultural practises. bla bla bla. so the notion of guilt = wrong is incorrect in my view.

Zulf
QuoteI wonder exactly how people make partners equal to God.
What are some examples?

Ever consider when people say "God said this and that" because such and such told them so? would that be shirk?

What about people who say they believe in God, bow down and prostrate to a statue and say this represents God? or people who say they God is in them, they are the God of the earth?

Quote1- Our wealth and properties .
2- Our tradition /race/status.
3-Our ego/arrogance.
4- Our desires and loyalties to others.
...
All these  can take us away from being  fair/just and good to ourselves and others. i.e lead us away from sirat Al Mustaqueem.

and without those things we are like robots but I guess they can do both lead us away or bring us closer to God


We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

good logic

Peace All.
Can we get away with it ,at GOD s, by saying: "If I am not sure/unaware of what shirk is, then I cannot be accountable for doing it".
Or I think I understand it this way or that way...But I cannot be bothered to know for sure.

So many verses where Qoran tells us to ponder/search/get to know: "Wa Ma Yaakiluha illa Al Aalimoon"... We have to find out to the best of our ability what shirk is.

Qoran  says many believe in GOD but commit shirk, then adds that we are not even aware of our deep convictions. We pretend/are lazy /hasty /change loyalties/give in to peer pressure/follow easily....i.e not be bothered and give up on hard tasks.

Qoran advises : "Oh my son do not commit shirk, shirk  is "Dhulmun Adeem""

The priority of all priorities, once we are aware of GOD s message ,is to seek knowledge about what the message is saying and why!!!

So after we all have a go at giving our take (see my earlier posts on my take)on what is shirk in this thread, and cannot find a common explanation for it, what then?
Your thoughts?
GOD bless you all.
Peace
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28[/url]

Rilum

Salam/Peace all.

I am not 100 percent sure.


Makaveli

Would someone know he/she is commiting idolatry if that person lived away from multi-cultural civilizations and before the Internet? In other words, happen you did not know about "one true God", would you "shirk"?
براتىشكا و فايحوشى

To contact me use kasnew1 [at] gee-mail (dot) com.

imrankhawaja

Quote from: SarahY on August 15, 2018, 06:41:40 AM


Someone asked me how do I know I?m a ?true? believer (as in a mumina)? Do I think I?m going to heaven? Do I spend 51% or more of my living doing good.


peace Sarah,

i also ask this question from myself the first memory of this question is when i was nearly kid. dnt know why when i share this question to any knowledgeable or wise person older than me,

they replied,
these are the ideas of satan  >:D

BOLD and 51% its interesting figure usually in academic studies we need to get 40% for passing marks ..
anyway 51% is also not that difficult as we see majortiy of people have just two or three wrong doings in some cases just one wrong doing .. but you are right we always fear for the results of exams even when we were about to get 90% marks. fear is in the nature of human being.

logically God will judge people according to the ability of understanding with the circumstances of person.. and judge just cant send somebody into prison just becoz he refused to accept judge as judge in reality this does not affect judge as he already knows he is legit judge..

Quote from: SarahY on August 15, 2018, 06:41:40 AM
Imrankhawaja
Maybe but people also feel guilt for doing things they were taught were wrong but actually aren?t "wrong". e.g. not wearing a headscarf, shaving the beard off, wearing shorts, speaking against parents, listening to music, disagreeing with cultural practises. bla bla bla. so the notion of guilt = wrong is incorrect in my view.


basically i m talking with my own experience so its intresting to share with you guys .

i did all oof these things when i was still under the cover of tradition but i never ever feel guilty in singing,listening, even dancing lol
i also disagree with culture practices , and one of my uncle said to me to have beard its shirk to remove your beard  :rotfl: but i really didnt listen or believe .. and i never feel guilty but i feel relaxed and chilled to be honest..

apart from one thing i never go against my mother ,
although when i speak with my mom loudly  in childhood i suddenly keep thinkin within myself i did a worst ever thing and after couple of mins i goes to her and hug her and i feel satisfaction..  this thing happen just few times in life before i see the verse dnt say a slight guesture of "uff" to ur parents ..

so basically bold catagory is included in sins and higher level of immorality but again all these things are not crimes and thats where we are struggling what is the difference between sin and crime?

and if shirk is not a crime then why there is a punisment for shirk?
who is to blame? everybody have their own kind of shirk?

imrankhawaja

peace and blessing of God upon all of you.

i have another theory in mind about this "SHIRK" myth.

lets consider SHIRK as gross crime and grand sin and then see what shirk is in actual..

as per this logically God will judge people according to the ability of understanding with the circumstances of person.. and judge just cant send somebody into prison just becoz he refused to accept judge as judge in reality this does not affect judge as he already knows he is legit judge..

so we have to rethink with logic instead of history to see what is actual shirk infront of creator and infront of general public..

mix of both sin + crime = shirk so its same like the concept of salat

same like salat is broad as per quran and a perfect examples of anti musali are in chapter 7 ..

so shirk is also a plural and broad kind of wrongdoings..
example (raping,killing,stealing) in one event describe three crimes but one shirk  ;) the person is disturbing/trying to challenging the nature and thats why when a bad ass boy do everything without any fear of law/society/God then he is lost case and he is mushrik as per people ..  becoz he is not caring of anything what he see from his eyes..

example his mother is telling him not to do.. but he is doing it without any fear.. he reject his mom over his plural sins and one by one the reaction of nature make him more cruel in his attentions.. (ending up in jail/or ending up in torture cell of some enemies what he created with his own hands , or he will gona get insane due to his own conscience guilt) all are the situation in which we can feel hell..


basically he is an advance criminal of society (mushrik =literal)

if somebody can see where i am coming from they can input more ideas..

shirk really is disturbing me becoz God is free of need he dnt need people to believe on him forcefully, eventually everybody knows they been created..


Zulf

Quote from: Makaveli on August 15, 2018, 10:41:36 AM
Would someone know he/she is commiting idolatry if that person lived away from multi-cultural civilizations and before the Internet? In other words, happen you did not know about "one true God", would you "shirk"?

Who says we know about 'one true God' now?
All we know is what we are taught and what we get from our interpretations of old texts.
Multi-cultural settings are nothing but several mono-cultures side by side. Shifting from one to another COULD be like staying within only one. From one, to another one.

My point is only that things might not be as clear and straight forward as many religious people may claim.
Cheers
O0
If you name me, you negate me.

Makaveli

Quote from: Zulf on August 16, 2018, 09:36:53 AM
Who says we know about 'one true God' now?
All we know is what we are taught and what we get from our interpretations of old texts.
Multi-cultural settings are nothing but several mono-cultures side by side. Shifting from one to another COULD be like staying within only one. From one, to another one.

Good answer.
براتىشكا و فايحوشى

To contact me use kasnew1 [at] gee-mail (dot) com.

good logic

Peace Zulf.
What do you make of Qoran?

Does it not answer this:Who says we know about 'one true God' now?

There is nothing here under the sun that has not been taught by someone or something.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28[/url]

imrankhawaja

Quote from: Zulf on August 16, 2018, 09:36:53 AM
Who says we know about 'one true God' now?

TRUE
we only know what someone else taught us but the chain has to go back somewhere at start. who was the one who taught at the first place.. ?

TRUE God never stop sending his signs untill now..

Quote from: Zulf on August 16, 2018, 09:36:53 AM
All we know is what we are taught and what we get from our interpretations of old texts.

its different what interpretation say about God compared to what God actually said.

perhaps its also something like sign
96:4 The One who taught by the pen.
96:5 He taught the human being what he did not know.

The Pen symbolizes the exchange of knowledge through written records, unique to man. Since this is a Divine gift to mankind, ?It is He Who taught.?

Quote from: Zulf on August 16, 2018, 09:36:53 AM
My point is only that things might not be as clear and straight forward as many religious people may claim.
Cheers
O0

true ..
its different what they say about what God say? vs what what actually said ..

cheers
blessing in the name of God