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How Did it Come to This? (Part 2)

Started by ayman, February 19, 2006, 12:43:07 AM

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savage_carrot

Peace bro Ayman,

Quote from: "ayman"I think that both can be used and you can use "imaginaion" just as well as "fantasy". I used fantasy because its verb "fantasize" has some overlap with the verb "desire". Humans tend to fantasize about what they desire.

Yes, I think I shall need to go through every occurence and check how it fits...sometimes I think it might just be referring to something that is around the 'creative'/imaginary aspect.

Quote from: "ayman"The word "ma3shar"/consorts implies that the fantasies and the humans are linked together. This is in line with other passages that talk about the "jinn" being "qarin"/one linked to humans.

An interesting question would be, what if the human is without the fantasy? Can they pass?

I do think that there is absolutely a link there, thats what I always got during the study of this particular subject. Hmm, can a human be without fantasy/imagination? We are so used to relying on that in everyday life, I know I'm a dreamer  :)  but then creativity could be different from inspiration?!? Creativity would rely on both the human and imagination while inspiration would be that jolt out of the blue that ties it all in...I think this might lead us to new uncharted space, it is food for thought.

Quote from: "ayman"From my understanding of the great reading, yes they do have feelings.

I agree, I do think they are seperate in that sense.

Quote from: "ayman"In 36:65, we are told that our hands and legs will testify on us. In this passage, like our fantasies, our hands and legs seem to be part of us and at the same time separate. We know that humans get pleasure from fantasizing about things such as wealth, power and lust. So perhaps the pleasure is two way.

I doubt that our hands feel differently about us and hate what we do? I understand the verse though and agree. Thoughts/imagination are a different thing I think. They come and go, sometimes when we silence ourselves enough and think, there is just us. Other times, there are these thoughts that are present buzzing and through all of it, yet we still know what is us. That leads me to think thoughts/imagination/fantasies are seperate yet a part.

Quote from: "ayman"I think that perhaps we need to look at it in the same way we look at everything. Take for example our hands, they are in turn made of cells that are made of molecules and those are made of atoms that are made of subatomic particles (electrons, protons, neutrons) and so on. Are the electrons seperate from us or part of us? They are both.

Definitely.

Quote from: "ayman"I think that you are asking the right questions and thinking along the right direction for answers. I think that everyone who wrote about this subject was close to the answer but for some reason couldn't see it. It is like when one has something right in front of them and they can't see it (I know because I was there myself).

Indeed, that is true. To some extent I have always felt that they operate on a person through his mind. Some explanations had a hard time fitting though and this seems quite promising.

QuoteThe idea about "thoughts" is close to the findings here. But even ideas such as leaders and the sectarian idea of ghosts. Think about it, leaders are people who have grandiose visions (i.e., fantasies). Similarly, ghosts and the such are the imagined products of our own fantasies. Interestingly, so-called haunted houses are mostly old houses that are made of stone. Friction between stones produces electromagnetic energy and thus old stone houses give higher than normal readings on magnetometers. To varying degrees, this electromagnetic energy seems to induce a strong feeling of a presence, disorientation, and perceptual irregularities in some individuals. It is as if their imagination plays tricks on them.  

Exactly. Ghosts and jinn were always intermingled. I remember reading about the occult and especially these 'perceptions' that people had about certain areas and came to the conclusion that it's all in the mind, also of course depending on triggers in the environment.

Quote from: "ayman"So far, only the meaning of fantasy/imagination fits and best links the ideas in the great reading to all the things that we can empirically verify.

As I said in my conclusion, there are so many new doors that this understanding opens, for example this has significant impact on our understanding of heaven and hell and so many other concepts.

I agree, and will get right on the research aspect of it, as I think it is a very interesting insight. I will be sending you my questions/comments as always  :)

Best regards,
Nadia
God has a plan, Gaius. He has a plan for everything and everyone.

ayman

Peace sister Nadia,

Quote from: "savage_carrot"I agree, and will get right on the research aspect of it, as I think it is a very interesting insight. I will be sending you my questions/comments as always  :)
Great, I look forward to your questions/comments.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
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Someone

Peace ayman, all

How can we tie the findings of your article with words like ("ins", "jinn") and ("insane", "jann")?

I think that "ins" is the plural of "insane", and "jinn" plural of "jann".

While writing this post, it occured to me the thought of "ins" and "insane" could come from the root "nassaa" or "nassia" which translate as "to forget", but I should verify this. Until now, I was thinking that it comes from the root "aanassa" which translate as "to socialize".

Peace upon you brother
--

idolfree1

Peace be upon you Brother Ayman!

How did I miss this one!!  :D

Fantastic as always brother. I have only read it once, but I am sure you already knew i would enjoy this article. There are some things that I will comment on that I think will clarify things even further, but I need some time on this one. I browsed through the responses and I wanted to agree with Darcus that this understanding shed PLENTY of light on salaat.

Now that brother Ayman has fantastically pulled all the verses together, something he does so well, the clarity will come as a result of proper orientation.

I will have much to add once I go over the article and responses again tonight.

Ayman, thank you greatly for the patience you exert to be able to take the time to put everything together the way you do.

thegod

Quoteayman wrote...
I will try to improve my understanding of the great reading and the universe, except if The God wills and perhaps my Lord guides me to what is nearer in rationality. Please verify all information within for yourself as commanded in 17:36, and remember that simply "none" is the forethoughtful answer to 45:6. If The God willed, the outcome of this article will be beneficial.

# much of what u have written is based on ur assumptions, which u have not proved in the entire length of the article, except by making some more assumptions! moreover, instead of establishing a thing and then concluding u have concluded and then tried to establish ur point! :-)

darcus

peace be upon you

idolfree: The article awoke something inside concerning the salaat issue.  I have recently had much confusion regarding salaat and whether or not I am correct in my own understanding.  However, the pieces fit together nicely and it feels right.  I know it is not the negative satanic influence whispering this - but the positive.  It also leads me to a renewed awareness of what I am doing, in the context of polarity - negative to positive 'emotions' fuelled by 'fantasy'.  It helps to control fear of the irrational and strengthens love.  I sound like I am babbling, its because I am giving myself free-reign here.  Something that feels natural to do.

thegod: a very short sharp reply like yours needs more explanation.  Please show me what you are thinking so that I can understand what you mean by the assumptions which were made throughout the article.  I dont see them as clear assumptions - maybe I am wrong.  Do go on.

Peace
d
May God grant us with knowledge and the wisdom to wield it.
May He guide us to the straight path

ayman

Peace brother,

Quote from: "Someone"How can we tie the findings of your article with words like ("ins", "jinn") and ("insane", "jann")?

I think that "ins" is the plural of "insane", and "jinn" plural of "jann".

While writing this post, it occured to me the thought of "ins" and "insane" could come from the root "nassaa" or "nassia" which translate as "to forget", but I should verify this. Until now, I was thinking that it comes from the root "aanassa" which translate as "to socialize".

The root of "INS" is "AaNaS", which indeed means "socialize". So I don't think that it has to do with "forget".

Peace,

Ayman
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ayman

Peace brothers Darcus and Kyle,

I would be very interested in learning your insights about how this affects our understanding of "salat" and other concepts.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
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darcus

Peace brother Ayman

In regards to the 'salat' issue, it is more a personal understanding.  I cannot provide clear evidence from the quran yet, but will do so after I have completed my research.  My thinking lies along the following lines:

For me salat is a two pronged thing - physical and non-physical.  The good thing with the small details of the quran regarding what it is, is that it can fluctuate between the two as the needs of the individual dictate.  The best point would be to find the middle road - the median point of the two, and this cannot be prescribed because it depends upon the individual.  Many people argue here that it cannot be physical.  I disagree with the phrase 'cannot', as this implies that the pinnacle of understanding regarding this has been achieved for all humanity - uncertainty is the best policy.  It is certainty that leads to sects forming.

The way in which you describe the 'fantasy' and it's role in our lives sounds about right, because by keeping these 'fantasies' in check and maintaining the balance between negative and positive leads to a remembrance of Allah.  It works for me, as it helps me to achieve this remembrance.  It has awoken the thing inside so that I open my eyes and then open them again.  Each layer of conciousness can impact the next, so in a way it 'reprograms' the method in which I perceive reality, my part in it and how I need to progress.

I may be rambling again but this is also how I see one of my 'fantasy's working through me.  I tend to type more or less what I think. (Im a fast typer by the way - so no comments on my speed of thought!)

When my research is complete and I can collate it together into something readable, I will post it on the forum.  That is if it does make sense.

peace out
d
May God grant us with knowledge and the wisdom to wield it.
May He guide us to the straight path

tanveermd

Salaamun alaikum Ayman, all,

A fantasy is clearly a thought and not a being. In my understanding "jinn" could mean "fantastic/hidden beings" or "fanciful/hidden beings" rather than "fantasies", as its usage in the great reading indicates a "being" rather than a "thought". For example:

37:158 And they invented a kinship between Him and the Jinn. But the Jinn know that they will be gathered.

Here Jinn appears to be "beings" rather than "thoughts". How can a "fantasy" know that it will be gathered ?

51:56 I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me.

How can a "fantasy" serve The God ? Here Jinn and humans are used in the same context as "beings" rather than "thoughts" with the ability to serve.

27:17 And Solomon's soldiers were gathered, comprising of humans and Jinn and birds, for they were to be spread out.

How can "fantasies" be soldiers ? The context clearly indicates they are "beings" rather than "thoughts".

34:12 And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him by his Lord's leave; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.
34:13 They made for him what he desired of enclosures, and statues, and pools of deep reservoirs, and heavy pots. "O family of David, work to show thanks." Only a few of My servants are appreciative.
34:14 Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realised that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.


How can "fantasies" work ? (34:12). How can fantasies make statues and pots ? (34:13). How can fantasies realize ? (34:14)

27:39 A powerful being from among the Jinn said: "I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."

How can a "fantasy" talk ?

41:25 And We assigned to them companions who adorned their present and past actions. Thus, the retribution has been deserved by them the same as previous nations of Jinn and humans; all of them were losers.

How can there be a nation of "fantasies" ? Jinn here is used in the same context as humans being nations, clearly indicating "beings" rather than "thoughts".

27:10 "And throw down your staff." So when he saw it shake as if it were a Jinn, he ran away and would not turn back. "O Moses, do not fear, for My messengers shall have no fear from Me."

How can one compare a physical object to a "fantasy" ?

55:33 O tribes of Jinn and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the Earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without authority.

How can there be a tribe of "fantasies" ? Here again humans and Jinn have the same context of "beings".

6:128 And the Day We gather them all: "O tribes of Jinn, you have managed to take many humans." Their supporters from the humans said: "Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us." He said: "The Fire is your dwelling, in it you shall abide eternally, except as your Lord wishes." Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.

How can fire be the dwelling of a "fantasy" ?

Electromagnetic waves are "hidden" but can now be detected by various technologies. Perhaps in the future when people will have the technology to detect the presence of Jinn, they will not be as fantastic/hidden any more !!

Peace,

Tanveer