Author Topic: About AS-SALAAT - for ARABS only please  (Read 775 times)

mquran

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About AS-SALAAT - for ARABS only please
« on: January 09, 2006, 01:12:39 AM »
Salaamun alaikum,

We've heard it all before from the traditionalists :
- You don't know Arabic
- You need to study 20 branches of Arabic to understand al-quraan
etc etc.

This thread arose out of my discussion with AhmedBaghat regarding meaning of words. Ahmed views that if Arabs use it a certain way, that's how it must be understood. This is why Ahmed believes 'nasaara' means 'christian'.

My view : if you asked 10 Arabs what is 'as-salaat' , all of them will say 'the 5 times ritual prayer'.

But we have 2 Arabs here who disagree that I know of. One is none other than Layth himself and the other is Ayman. Both think as-salaat isn't the ritual prayer.

Ahmed Baghat , what is your understanding of as-salaat and how did you get there?

AhmedBahgat

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Re: About AS-SALAAT - for ARABS only please
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2006, 01:57:09 AM »
Quote from: "mquran"
Salaamun alaikum,


Peace

Quote from: "mquran"
We've heard it all before from the traditionalists :
- You don't know Arabic
- You need to study 20 branches of Arabic to understand al-quraan
etc etc.


never heard of 20 branches of Arabic, I only heard of one that is taught in all schools all around the Arabic world call ?Lugha Arabia Fusha? ?Literary? which is the same Arabic style of the Quran, here is a bit from Wikipedia about the Arabic Language

Literary and Modern Standard Arabic
The term "Arabic" may refer either to literary Arabic or Modern Standard Arabic or to the many localized varieties of Arabic commonly called "colloquial Arabic." Arabs consider literary Arabic as the standard language and tend to view everything else as mere dialects. Literary Arabic, al-luġatu-l-arabiyyatu-l-fuṣḥā (Literally: "the most eloquent Arabic language" ? اللغة العربية الفصحى) refers both to the language of present-day media across North Africa and the Middle East and to the more archaic language of the Qur'an. (The expression media here includes most television and radio, and all written matter, including all books, newspapers, magazines, documents of every kind, and reading primers for small children.) "Colloquial" or "dialectal" Arabic refers to the many national or regional varieties derived from Classical Arabic, spoken daily across North Africa and the Middle East, which constitute the everyday spoken language. These sometimes differ enough to be mutually incomprehensible. These dialects are not typically written, although a certain amount of literature (particularly plays and poetry) exists in many of them. They are often used to varying degrees in informal spoken media, such as soap operas and talk shows. Literary Arabic or classical Arabic is the official language of all Arab countries and is the only form of Arabic taught in schools at all stages.

*End of Extraction*

Therefore what I was taught in schools for years and years was the ?"the most eloquent Arabic language" ? اللغة العربية الفصحى)?, which refers both to the language of present-day media across North Africa and the Middle East and to the more archaic language of the Qur'an.

Cosequently your claim you need 20 branches of Arabic is 100% wrong, as clearly from the above you only need to learn one which is "the most eloquent Arabic language" ? اللغة العربية الفصحى), which refers both to the language of present-day media across North Africa and the Middle East and to the more archaic language of the Qur'an.

Quote from: "mquran"
Ahmed views that if Arabs use it a certain way, that's how it must be understood. This is why Ahmed believes 'nasaara' means 'christian'.


This is wrong, wrong wrong, where you got this view that you assigned to me from?, can you prove your statement, also I don?t believe that ?nasaara? means Christians, IT IS ?"the most eloquent Arabic language" ? اللغة العربية الفصحى)? that is taught at all schools in all Arabic countries

Hence, I insist that ?nasaara? means 500% ?christians?,  that is what ?"the most eloquent Arabic language" ? اللغة العربية الفصحى)?

I provided compelling proofs from Al Haqq and you provided NONE, why not trying to prove your case again regarding the 'nasaara' but we must have judges this time to beat our ego

Quote from: "mquran"
My view : if you asked 10 Arabs what is 'as-salaat' , all of them will say 'the 5 times ritual prayer'.


As quick answer by non religious Arabs, yes that is what you expect, but when you ask knowledgeable Arabs it is totally different story

Quote from: "mquran"
Ahmed Baghat , what is your understanding of as-salaat and how did you get there?


Since I was a child, I know what the word means in Arabic, it simply means connection, therefore, all my life this is how it meant to me

Ie. I?m making a connection with my God, like calling Him or even I can take it as visiting Him without seeing Him

How to perform it and how often?, this is irrelevant because for a true submitter who wants to perform it all day/night long, it can?t cause any conflict whatsoever rather it will be even better for that submitter to do as such.

A Muslim is the one who submits entirely to Allah, and at this stage  I guess he/she may want to perform Salat 100 times all day/night long which is really something good I reckon

Consequently I will reserve my right not to discuss how I make my Salat to my God and how often I should make it

Peace

mquran

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About AS-SALAAT - for ARABS only please
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2006, 02:45:09 AM »
Quote
Since I was a child, I know what the word means in Arabic, it simply means connection, therefore, all my life this is how it meant to me

Ie. I’m making a connection with my God, like calling Him or even I can take it as visiting Him without seeing Him

How to perform it and how often?, this is irrelevant because for a true submitter who wants to perform it all day/night long, it can’t cause any conflict whatsoever rather it will be even better for that submitter to do as such.

A Muslim is the one who submits entirely to Allah, and at this stage I guess he/she may want to perform Salat 100 times all day/night long which is really something good I reckon

Consequently I will reserve my right not to discuss how I make my Salat to my God and how often I should make it



Good stuff. So you REJECT the given meaning as understood by Arabs. How is it ok for you to do this?

Question rephrased : By what methodology do you arrive at your conclusions and why do you reject the meaning as understood by the millions of Arabs?

AhmedBahgat

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About AS-SALAAT - for ARABS only please
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2006, 03:31:54 AM »
Quote
Since I was a child, I know what the word means in Arabic, it simply means connection, therefore, all my life this is how it meant to me

Ie. I?m making a connection with my God, like calling Him or even I can take it as visiting Him without seeing Him

How to perform it and how often?, this is irrelevant because for a true submitter who wants to perform it all day/night long, it can?t cause any conflict whatsoever rather it will be even better for that submitter to do as such.

A Muslim is the one who submits entirely to Allah, and at this stage I guess he/she may want to perform Salat 100 times all day/night long which is really something good I reckon

Consequently I will reserve my right not to discuss how I make my Salat to my God and how often I should make it



Quote from: "mquran"
Good stuff. So you REJECT the given meaning as understood by Arabs.


Excuse me bro, I never said I REJECT the given meaning by the Arabs

see some people take the stories in the Quran as similtitudes and others don't for tyhe same stories, and you consider them both muslims, so why you want me to object the freedom of other muslims now?

See how complicated it can get, therefore, using your own logic, it is up to them the way they understand it as long as at the end of the day they call themselves muslims. like me, you, lelya kyle nabi and others

And my thanks to you for making me aware of this fact  

Quote from: "mquran"
How is it ok for you to do this?


As it is ok for kyle to make up his own understainding as it is ok with you too, see

Quote from: "mquran"
Question rephrased : By what methodology do you arrive at your conclusions and why do you reject the meaning as understood by the millions of Arabs?


Answer rephrased :

My methodology was : "the most eloquent Arabic language" ? اللغة العربية الفصحى) refers both to the language of present-day media across North Africa and the Middle East and to the more archaic language of the Qur'an. " affirm that "Salat" means "Connection"

For the second part, I don't reject their understainding as you don't reject Kyle understanding with many other things in the Quran

mquran

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About AS-SALAAT - for ARABS only please
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2006, 04:00:18 AM »
Quote
Excuse me bro, I never said I REJECT the given meaning by the Arabs

Who's saying you SAID it?
I'm saying you DO it. Here's my evidence:

The Arabs as a whole understand 'salaat' to be '5 times a day ritual prayer'.

Ahmed says 'no, salaat is something other than that'.

So you reject (synonyms : don't accept, think otherwise) their understanding.

So why do you reject as-salaat as they understand but count on them as the final word for nasaara?


Quote
see some people take the stories in the Quran as similtitudes and others don't for tyhe same stories, and you consider them both muslims, so why you want me to object the freedom of other muslims now?


Irrelevant to the discussion. I respect your right to interpret as you wish. I'm calling into question your consistency.


Quote
See how complicated it can get, therefore, using your own logic, it is up to them the way they understand it as long as at the end of the day they call themselves muslims. like me, you, lelya kyle nabi and others


Its not complicated at all. If you behave as a muslim, you're a muslim. If you behave otherwise, you're like so. Kyle behaves as a muslim (at least on forums) but you call him kafir anyway.

Quote
As it is ok for kyle to make up his own understainding as it is ok with you too, see


Big difference. Kyle doesn't reject something because Arabs use it differently. You do, except in this case. Kyle is consistent and you're not. I salute your honest about as-salaat though. To me, it would be a squeeze for anyone to claim as-salaat means ritual prayer.


Quote
My methodology was : "the most eloquent Arabic language" — اللغة العربية الفصحى) refers both to the language of present-day media across North Africa and the Middle East and to the more archaic language of the Qur'an. " affirm that "Salat" means "Connection"


Go to any mosque , stand in front of the congregation and tell them, 'this isnt salaat what you're doing, salaat means connection'. Better make your ticket from Oz one way though, cause you won't be going back!

Show them the word in the Quran and ask them, what does this mean and you will see.


Quote
For the second part, I don't reject their understainding as you don't reject Kyle understanding with many other things in the Quran


This isnt to do with rejecting someones understanding. Kyle, Leyla, Nabi , you , me and anyone else can interpret however they choose. The question is CONSISTENCY. If our interpretions has 'ikhtilaafan katheera' , it's not going to be correct, is it ? THAT'S the point. As-salaat as 5 times ritual prayer is inconsistent with al-quraan, just like 'nasaara' as Christians will be. Thanks for coming out with your salaat method though. I respect that and you for your honesty.

AhmedBahgat

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About AS-SALAAT - for ARABS only please
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2006, 04:10:59 AM »
Mquran, I have to go to bed now and it seems you need a lot of time commitment, and you will have it

I will respond later