Author Topic: Is Quran anti- secular?  (Read 13775 times)

Jaxal

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Is Quran anti- secular?
« Reply #180 on: November 26, 2005, 08:03:57 AM »
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Like i said, forget the past.


No. No one should forget the past. The past is what makes us what we are. We WERE cavemen once. We shouldnt forget that. WE were unbeliever once. WE should never forget that.

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i believe because of that GOD took the true Quran away from the people for many years or had other methods of showing the true Quran to sincere believers of which we have no knowledge.


So you are saying that God allowed the addition of the two false verses? That would make God a hypocryte.

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Remeber the Quran says not to argue about things of which we have no knoledge as well


The above has nothing to do with code 19.

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We should appreciate TO WHAT WE HAVE NOW


What we have now is conjecture. Im refering to code 19. Let me say this loud and clear. I repsect that you belive in code 19. I have nothing against code 19. Then again, i dont have nothing against pigs too.
She Made Me See The World In A Grain Of Sand.
When The Only Choice You Have Left Is The Wrong One, It'S Not A Choice Anymore... It's Fate.

peacefulmuslim

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Is Quran anti- secular?
« Reply #181 on: November 26, 2005, 08:24:20 AM »
Hi Mquran,

Here is my answer to ur posts:

Do u believe wisdom/knowledge/goodness exsists out of Quran as well?
Or If not,  do u beleive all that man knows today, all the discoveries, all the lessons learnt are from Man(MaN BEING SUPERIOR) himself and not from God?
Bang, I believe all the knowledege, all the wisdom, all the goodness on earth and beyond is from God. And Man attains knowlegde, wisdom only with Allah's will/ favour and guidance.

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19:76 "And Allah doth advance in guidance those who seek guidance: and the things that endure, Good Deeds, are best in the sight of thy Lord, as rewards, and best in respect of (their) eventual return."


see the difference? Now dont bother replying though.
And Mquran, It is futile arguing with u coz u dont wish to see that GOD'S signs  exsist outside Quran too. To u, God's  signs and wisdom  are in Quran only.

If someone talks of stuff not mentioned in Quran or even utters words not in Quran, u ask for quotes from Quran and call them kafirs.

U read the same QUran that we do. But our understanding of it, is different from  urs. I said Allah wants us to be respectful of all, and u refute that. Are u saying God is unjust or God doesnt condider virtue and righteousness  as essential criteria for humanbeings? I have repeatedly quoted the verses to u but u dont want to see it.

Mquran, I dont have to prove to u, in which discussions u used abuses and in which posts I used Quran quotes.  U can see it urself if u do some homework. I dont have to prove anything to u nor do I have to seek ur approval about anything. U r just a human being like me.

Here is my request once again: I dont want to discuss with u coz, u lack basic manners. So, this is my final post to u.
I apologise if I have been impolite anytime.
Thank u.

Peace!

Jaxal

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Is Quran anti- secular?
« Reply #182 on: November 26, 2005, 08:26:41 AM »
SaLam PM

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To u, God's only signs are in Quran.


A changed and altered Quran at that.
She Made Me See The World In A Grain Of Sand.
When The Only Choice You Have Left Is The Wrong One, It'S Not A Choice Anymore... It's Fate.

jonny_k

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Is Quran anti- secular?
« Reply #183 on: November 26, 2005, 08:39:50 AM »
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No. No one should forget the past. The past is what makes us what we are. We WERE cavemen once. We shouldnt forget that. WE were unbeliever once. WE should never forget that.


Khi- Salam. Oh you believe in that cavemen junk? Well i dont and there are many many people out there who share my views. I believe mankind was created perfect like Adam who new all the names of animals and had probably a much greater intellect than us  today. Remeber Quran says:
[50:36]  Many a generation before them, who were more powerful, we annihilated. They searched the land; did they find an escape?
And 2ndly i was talking about not to conjecture of the past. All is conjecture. Like i said we dont know what signs GOD gave to them so thats why it is totally irrelevant. These are silly excuses just to ignore any new signs which GOD has or GW will provide us with in the future. Get it?

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So you are saying that God allowed the addition of the two false verses? That would make God a hypocryte.


Khi- To the Mushaf yes NOT the Quran. PLZ try to understand this. The corrupt Muslims, id say, didnt deserve the true Quran no more. GOD knew whats in their hearts while we do not and allows things to happen accordingly. The statement "allowed them enter in the Quran" is incorrect. The Quran is NOT mere ink and paper which you and most others here have still not understood.

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The above has nothing to do with code 19.


Khi- Heh?

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What we have now is conjecture. Im refering to code 19. Let me say this loud and clear. I repsect that you belive in code 19. I have nothing against code 19. Then again, i dont have nothing against pigs too.


Khi- :lol:   What are you saying? Code-19 is crystal clear for those whove studied it like bros Bahman, Edip , myself and many others. Some people just cant see the miracle and GOD knows their hearts and thus the reasons as to why they dont. GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

Jaxal

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Is Quran anti- secular?
« Reply #184 on: November 26, 2005, 08:55:17 AM »
SaLaM idmkhizar

Lets continue the discussion on this thread : http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65302#65302
She Made Me See The World In A Grain Of Sand.
When The Only Choice You Have Left Is The Wrong One, It'S Not A Choice Anymore... It's Fate.

jonny_k

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Is Quran anti- secular?
« Reply #185 on: November 26, 2005, 09:08:49 AM »
Quote from: "Jaxal"
SaLaM idmkhizar

Lets continue the discussion on this thread : http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65302#65302


Khi- Ok
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

NoProgressive

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Is Quran anti- secular?
« Reply #186 on: November 26, 2005, 09:35:17 AM »
As Salaam Alaikum Everyone,

I believe that the Quranic laws should prevail over everything, and everyone.  But we should note that there are some laws that have only been made for the believers, and not for all people.


Other than that, other things can be debated.


I'm down with God! I don't like to run away from him, and act like religion doesn't exist. It does! I hate secularism.

salam
Love. Respect. Peace.

mquran

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Is Quran anti- secular?
« Reply #187 on: November 26, 2005, 11:15:57 AM »
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19/09/2005 11:44:17 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs

Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ?


In the 'secular democracy' religion, does PROGRAMS mean SCRIPTURES ? How well you twist words, LT :)

29/69 of al-quraan approves of SUBUUL, multiple PATHS , but never any other scripture.

I challenge you to bring proof from al-quraan to the contrary.

Further, I challenge you to bring your 'objective instruments of analysis'. Your inability to do so only shows the empty nature of your lofty ideals. When you condescend towards those who believe in the absolute truth of al-quraan, you should remember that free-thinkers like you are also accountable for what they say.

mquran

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Is Quran anti- secular?
« Reply #188 on: November 26, 2005, 11:29:10 AM »
Salaam Khi,

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Khi- It's true there are many different "camps" or rather people who understand some parts of Quran differently but that's not the main issue
.

You alleged I'm not 'quran only'. Im only answering you by telling you I couldn't care less. No offense.


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The main issue is that there are those who dont believe in code-19 yet claim to believe in Quran. I dont understand how that is possible.


I've shown you the ayat. If you don't see ayat fil afaq wa fil anfus, what can I do, man ?

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 It just doesnt seem logical to me because in this way anyone can just add up some verses in between what you now call as Quran and voila in a few years therell be a group having another "quran" with additional verses. Those who believe in code-19 i dont have much problems with them even if we have more or less differences in interpretation of ceratin verses for i believe those would be clarified gradually in the future GW as per the ayat in my signature.


Yes, anyone can write another 'quran' but would it be the one in eminence (az-zikr) ? Never. Az-zikr is the one known in the world and any changes would be immediately known.



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Khi- I dont know why your putting an innocent woman down. Why dont you challenge bro Edip to a debate and then well see?


Innocent woman? Aisha Musa gave false information about al-quraan so she's not so innocent to me. Can do. I've emailed him to debate him on democracy. We can add on to 19 as well. Would you mind asking him.



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Khi- In the above verses GOD is obviously talking about the people who have received enough signs and yet are rejecting and thus would continue to reject, logically which is not the case with code-19 believers for they surely believe dont they? This ofcourse varies from time to time from generation to generation and GOD knows this. Thats why the following verse:
[2:106]  When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, We produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
The above verses you quoted are often brough up by code-19 rejectors and then i show them verses from the Quran that those who reject GOD's "ayaat(any signs from GOD)" are kaafir no matter whether theyd believed before and thats the issue here. It's not that we asked for code-19. GOD knew why and He is the one Who sent it to us and we would be arrogant to reject it, plain and simple. GOD Bless!


Hmm, lets start from beginning, ok?

19 is the miracle of the Quran, you assert. Correct?

If 19 is the miracle, why wasn't 19 mentioned as the 'even if' verses ? Why is there only mentioned the literal descent of a book on paper and the ascent of the person into heaven?

God's saying, EVEN IF he does this, they won't believe.

Why didn't he say EVEN IF he showed the most intricate 19 aspect, they wont believe? If 19 is the miracle of the Quran?

That's what im saying.

[/quote]

LoteTree

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Is Quran anti- secular?
« Reply #189 on: November 26, 2005, 11:31:02 AM »
hypocrisy?

here is a transcript of a converstation with the forum member "mquran".

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19/09/2005 11:35:54 mq - its like humans have 2 dynamic poles
19/09/2005 11:35:59 mq - the heaven and the earth
19/09/2005 11:36:03 mq -heavenS, sorry
19/09/2005 11:36:23 mq -part of us soar in this heavenly realm, which the poet captures
19/09/2005 11:36:44 mq -but our earthly realm brings us back
19/09/2005 11:37:00 mq -this is where my love of mystical poetry ends
19/09/2005 11:37:05 Lote-Tree -poet captures both chap..
19/09/2005 11:37:15 Lote-Tree -the hell as well as the heaven
19/09/2005 11:37:34 mq -agreed.., but where we depart is that actual program
19/09/2005 11:37:54 mq -i think heaven can be found in the earthly side of things
19/09/2005 11:37:59 mq -if we follow the path
19/09/2005 11:38:03 Lote-Tree -heaven is within us
19/09/2005 11:38:09 Lote-Tree -hell is within us
19/09/2005 11:38:33 Lote-Tree -we would not know the differnece without them
19/09/2005 11:39:01 mq -potentially, yes
19/09/2005 11:39:17 mq -but they must be given birth to
19/09/2005 11:39:30 mq -thats the whole point
19/09/2005 11:40:27 Lote-Tree - elaborate
19/09/2005 11:40:52 mq - well, the concept of heaven is within us, its actualisability is also within our grasp
19/09/2005 11:41:03 mq -but in order to bring it forth, that requires a prograk
19/09/2005 11:41:07 mq -progam*
19/09/2005 11:41:15 mq -all human beings seek that
19/09/2005 11:41:38 mq -the quran calls this 'al-kitaab'...the writ
19/09/2005 11:41:57 mq -as a programmer, what are u trying to do ? ur WRITING something which the system understands
19/09/2005 11:42:06 mq -why ? in order to exploit the usage of the system
19/09/2005 11:42:35 mq -if we discover LIFE'S program, we could do the same
19/09/2005 11:43:52 Lote-Tree -your analogy fails in the respect that are millions of different programs available... and that is my point - Quran for you is your program - and thats great... but to others it is Bhagavad Gita, Buddhas Fire Sermon...etc...
19/09/2005 11:44:17 mq -no, the quran acknowledges the many different programs
19/09/2005 11:44:29 Lote-Tree -so why bother with quran?
19/09/2005 11:45:13 mq -its the best programming language
19/09/2005 11:45:24 mq -i have not seen concepts so illustrated
19/09/2005 11:45:33 Lote-Tree -for you it is mquran... for you it is
19/09/2005 11:45:38 mq -oh agreed
 
See the highlighted and now see what you have written now

Quote from: "mquran"

Can you please tell me where al-quraan approves of 'all scriptures' ?


I have highlighted few more lines above so that it may help...

Hypocrisy?
I think so....

Regards,