daman masfoohan (6:145) and addam(16:115, 2:173)

[Ali Omar]

Dear Marie,

I think it is time to slow down a bit and take this one step at a time.
I am a technical person, and therefore used to think of solutions based on facts that I find around me.
Let us try to use common sense and find out of the matter at hand. None of us are experts in this field, we are all searching. So, let us search. God ask us to use our brains and search for information in all of God?s signs, not the quran alone, so let us.

6.145 says ?....pouring/flowing/running blood.....?

This, I understand, you agree to?
If not do not continue, stop here, and tell me what you think 6.145 says.
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If you agree, then go on.
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When is a liquid said to be pouring/flowing/running?

Let us look at a very common expression like ?running water?. When is this regarded as ?running??
In a cup, in a glass, as ice-cubes, or from a source where the water is pouring out?

Do you agree that it means water ?pouring/flowing/running? from some source?

If not, do not continue, stop here, and tell me what you think it means.
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If you agree, then go on.
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What is the difference between ?running water? and ?water??

Should there be any difference when talking about other types of liquids, including blood?

If so, then again, stop here and please explain what the difference is.
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If you think there is no difference in the expressions, then go on.
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The verse states ?running blood? as something to avoid.

What is the difference between this ?running blood? and blood contained in a piece of beef?

If you think there is a difference, then please explain.

Regards

Ali Omar

[marie]

Salam Ali Omar,

I understand running blood or blood in 2:173, 16:115 and 6:145 as the blood which is not mixed with any piece af animal.
As you know, this liquid blood is drunk by some people in Africa and eaten in Europe mixed with other ingredient and cooked like the black pudding.

If you don't mind can you answer my last question about the black pudding which is the cooked runnig blood. By the same way what do you think about the cooked dead meat.

Thanks in advance

[Ali Omar]

Dear Marie,

All blood is running at the time an animal is killed, whether it is running in smaller veins or in larger veins is insignificant.

After the animal is killed, the blood is still liquid in the various veins in the body. If we leave the animal for some time, slowly the blood will begin to coagulate. By the time the blood has coagulated, the meat will smell foul and it will also begin to look bad. The time for this to happen vary with the temperatures surrounding the meat is.
This meat should not be eaten. As I now have been informed this may be one of the meanings of "khinzeer".

In order for us to keep the meat for a longer period of time without going bad, we can take precautions like, for instance, smoking it, salting it or freezing it.
If we take a piece of meat right after the animal is killed and put it in the freezer, the deterioration process will be slowed down tremendously.
When we take the meat out of the freezer to use it, the blood will become liquid again as soon as the meat has thawed. We can squeeze the meat and see that blood will be pouring out.
This again is ?pouring blood?.

Now, as soon as we fry or cook the meat, the blood will no longer be pouring it will become firm, and often seem like a part of the meat.
Now, this blood we eat together with the rest of the ?ingredients? of the meat, and do not think twice about it.
This will be the same if we take a piece of fresh meat just after the animal was killed, and fry it or cook it.

If we on the other hand, take the blood from the animal and prepare it with the ingredients to make ?black pudding? and cook and fry it, you say that this blood is harmful for us, because it does not contain any meat.
What you are stating is that blood is OK if it is mixed with meat but NOT if it is not mixed with meat.
The only difference here is the meat, the blood is the same.
Don?t you see anything strange with this picture? In both cases we prepared ?running blood?, the amount of blood differs though.

We must make up our minds, is blood OK if we have cooked it or is it not. Whether or not it is mixed with meat is of no importance as to the health aspect. The meat will not take away whatever harmful things there are in the blood.

Now, to the analogy with another liquid, the water again.
We may go to the tap and fill a small container with ?running water?. We boil this water and then put it in the freezer until it becomes ice. Is this still running water? We definitely made the ice from ?running water?, but it has gone through a certain process.

Your ?black pudding? is made from ?running blood? but when it has been cooked it is no longer ?running blood?, blood can only flow/pour/run when it is fresh, or in liquid basic form.
Do you see the resemblance here?

You say we make ?black pudding? from ?running blood?, therefore it can not be healthy.
May I inform you that we make drinking water from sewage water? Is the drinking water not healthy because the sewage water is undrinkable?
The analogies are numerous.

Again to your question, ?black pudding? is NOT ?running blood?, and prepared correctly, is not forbidden. This is why God specifically states ?running blood? and not just simply, straight forward ?blood?.
If you still believe that prepared and cooked ?black pudding? is the same as ?running blood? because the blood was running at one time, then I don?t know what to say.

Regds

Ali Omar

[marie]

Salam Ali Omar

“black pudding” is NOT “running blood”, and prepared correctly, is not forbidden.

.
Thanks for your clear answer.
The dead meat cooked is also the the dead meat, this is valid for the other prohibited foods.

The verse doesn't specify any condition (cooked or not cooked).

Don't consume raw blood and don't consume the blood in its liquid state are not similar.

[Ali Omar]

Dear Marie,

The opposite of ?dead? is ?not dead?.
However, very few of us eat ?not dead? meat. :roll:  The expression here means something that has died by other causes than slaughtered by a human.
It becomes ?dead? (I sincerely hope)  before we eat it. And by God?s grace, humans have also found ways to process the meat so that it is safer for us to consume, but when the processing begun, the meat was ?dead?.

The opposite of ?flowing/running? is ?not flowing/running?.
However, very few of us consume ?flowing/running? blood. In fact God expressively forbids us to do so, like God also forbids us to consume anything ?dead? that is not slaughtered.
By God?s grace (or maybe someone would say by Satan?s guidance :? ), humans have found a way to process blood so that it is safer for us to consume (?black pudding?), but when the processing begun, the blood was ?flowing?.

In the first case we do NOT eat ?dead meat?, we eat ?processed dead meat?, starting with a live animal.
In the second case we do NOT eat ?running blood? we eat ?processed running blood?, starting with a live animal.
Why should the first be OK and second not? Verse 6.145 certainly does not say so. Are we trying to forbid something, claiming that ?God did it??

By the way, would you care to explain to me how blood could be ?raw? (in its natural state) and not be liquid?  
(Raw meaning not processed, or in natural state, see ?raw material?)

Regards

Ali Omar

[marie]

Dear Ali Omar,

When I refer to the dead meat, this is the dead meat (almayta) which is mentionned in 6:145, 16:115 and 2:173. I don't speak about  “dead” which is slaughtered.

I rectify my last post for you:

The dead meat ( that has died by other causes than slaughtered by a human)) cooked remains the dead meat which has died by other causes than slaughtered by a human and which is unlawfull for us. This is valid for the other prohibited foods.

6:145, 16:115 and 2:173  doesn't specify any condition (cooked or not cooked), if you cook for example what is dedicated to other than God, it remains unlawfull for us. This is valid for the running blood and lahm alkhinzeer.

Salam

[Ali Omar]

Dear Marie,

One more go.

Dead meat that has become dead by other means than slaughtering by a human is forbidden for us, no matter what, agreed! We can not make it ?not dead?, i.e. change its state, slaughter it and start a process to make it lawful!

Meat dedicated to other than God is forbidden for us, no matter what, agreed! We can not ?un-dedicate? it, i.e. change its state, and start a process to make it lawful!

?Khinzeer? is forbidden for us, no matter what, agreed! We can not change its state and start a process to make it lawful for us!
If it means ?pig? we can not change the pork meat into beef, if it means ?filthy? we can not make it fresh again, if it has gone bad it has gone bad.

Running blood is forbidden for us, agreed!
But, we can start a process to change its state and make it edible for us!

This is exactly what we do when we cook any kind of flesh that is otherwise lawful.

What is the difference in processing meat with blood inside, vs. processing ?running blood? without meat?
Does it have something to do with the quantity of it?
Does it have something to do with the mixture, mixed with meat vs. not mixed with meat?
I find it hard to believe that blood should be less filthy in meat than without meat!

How can 100 HIV-viruses, or any other virus or bacteria, in an animal?s blood be less dangerous than a larger quantity of the same?
I do not believe that God just had the urge to forbid something for us without any reason. Why do you think God says ?fa-innahu rijsun? in 6.145? Just joking?

The question you asked Ahmed is interesting; can ?lahm? mean the whole body of the animal?
It could open up a whole new understanding of the Arabic language.

Regards

Ali Omar

[David]

Peace Ali Omar,

What is the difference in processing meat with blood inside, vs. processing ?running blood? without meat?
Does it have something to do with the quantity of it?
Does it have something to do with the mixture, mixed with meat vs. not mixed with meat?
I find it hard to believe that blood should be less filthy in meat than without meat!

So then, eating uncooked or partially cooked meat is unlawful according to you, since that would make it the same as running blood.
(since you do not differentiate between running blood and blood that is part of the meat).

peace

[Ali Omar]

Dear David,

Yes, exactly!
It is my understanding that when blood is in its natural state, i.e. a liquid able to ?flow?, it is in this state wherever it may be found.

Regards

Ali Omar

[marie]

Salam all,

"Daman masfoohan" translated word for word is the blood which one shed.

Masfooh is according the measure of mafAAool like "maktool". "Maqtool" is who he is killed by a third. In the same way, "Masfooh" describes the action which is made by a third. It is like a pronominal form of the verb safaha.

The Reading stated clearly that the blood (2:173, 16:115)  is prohibited. daman masfoohan (6:145) brings an additional information in order to make the difference between the blood which remains in the body and the blood which leaves the body.

The verb is safaha and it is a synonymous of safaka (2:30):

2:30. And your Lord said to the Angels: “I am placing a successor on Earth.” They said: “Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill/shed blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?” He said: “I know what you do not know.”

Wa-ith qala rabbuka lilmala-ikatiinnee jaAAilun fee al-ardi khaleefatan qalooatajAAalu feeha man yufsidu feeha wa yasfiku alddimaa wanahnu nusabbihu bihamdika wanuqaddisu lakaqala innee aAAlamu ma la taAAlamoona

From 2:30 we see the connection between dam masfook or masfooh and the one who shed the blood (the murderer).

Another derivative from the same root (siin - fa- h(7)a) is used in 4:24

4:24. And the already married from the women, except those who become widowed; God’s scripture is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Waalmuhsanatu mina alnnisa-iilla ma malakat aymanukum kitaba AllahiAAalaykum waohilla lakum ma waraa thalikuman tabtaghoo bi-amwalikum muhsineena ghayra musafiheena fama istamtaAAtum bihi minhunna faatoohunnaojoorahunna fareedatan wala junaha AAalaykumfeema taradaytum bihi min baAAdi alfareedatiinna Allaha kana AAaleeman hakeeman

5:5. Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent from the believing women, and the independent from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their dowries, protected, chaste, not in fornication and not seeking to take lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.

Alyawma ohilla lakumu alttayyibatuwataAAamu allatheena ootoo alkitaba hillunlakum wataAAamukum hillun lahum waalmuhsanatumina almu/minati waalmuhsanatu minaallatheena ootoo alkitaba min qablikum itha ataytumoohunna ojoorahunna muhsineena ghayra musafiheena wala muttakhithee akhdanin waman yakfur bial-eemanifaqad habita AAamaluhu wahuwa fee al-akhiratimina alkhasireena

According the context of 4:24, 5:5 Almusafaha means the fornication, the origin of this derivative is from "discharge", to pour the seminal liquid illegally..