Author Topic: sex before marriage  (Read 22802 times)

nimnimak_11

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Re: sex before marriage
« Reply #220 on: May 24, 2010, 02:06:16 PM »
@Aalmakto

33:55 does kill the notion that MMAs are exclusively fiances however it does not wipe out the possibility that it can be a fiance.

Assuming that an MMA is someone whom you have some contract or oath with. This could range from a doctor or nanny to a g/f or fiance.
My point here is that in the case of 33:55, it may be that whilst being married, the wives could expose parts to like a doctor or a nanny but could not expose to a boyfriend (as that would be wrong!) and this can be said because whilst being married, certain commitments are in place. One of which is that should you have like a fling with someone who isn't your spouse, whilst you do have a spouse, then that's classifies as lewdness. But if your showing you doctor your parts (for the right reasons) then it's not lewdness. So here you are exposing to your MMA but not commiting lewdness.

Now if your not married and you get an MMA (the fiance type) then there is no lewdness if you unguard your parts to them as you don't have other commitments. You have however got to act in accordnace with not being lewd. So hiring a prostitue, might fall into the category of lewdness but being in a relationship won't.

MMA is still MMA but it entails various roles in which all are to do with oaths and contractuall agreement. I'm considering this view at the moment.

@OPF 24:33 suggests that we abstain untill marriage. I'm assuming that it's sex that we're abstaining from. I just remembered this verse with respect to condoning marriage for sex. Have not come across any for MMAs which might imply that sex is best left untill marriage.

AlFajr

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Re: sex before marriage
« Reply #221 on: May 24, 2010, 02:08:26 PM »
Yes that is my approach. That all things are permissible unless forbidden.

@Aalmakto.
True it is a higher degree of exposure. But what verse do we have in the Quran that places any limitation on how much we expose or what we do with these parts with erm...our respective MMAs? What's to stop us thinking that we could do all things except actual penetration? The only verse to go by are the ones that talk of lewdness but how can we judge what is lewdness? Unless it's some clear wrong like some kind of fetish or something which we can maby relate to wickedness, i can't see how we can judge something else as lewd when "unguarding" private parts to respective MMAs.

I would say this exposure is of a non-sexual nature. Perhaps its something like, just changing clothes or having a shower.

Some verses about lewdness.

17:32 And do not come near adultery, for it is lewdness and an evil path.

6:151...and do not come near lewdness, what is evident of it and what is subtle...

53:32 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the earth, and while you were embryos in the wombs of your mothers. Therefore, do not ascribe purity to yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.
No matter how far you have gone down the wrong path, turn around.
Some helpful links.

http://corpus.quran.com/
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Wakas

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Re: sex before marriage
« Reply #222 on: May 24, 2010, 05:50:33 PM »
peace,

@OPF
That verse 2:223 does not mention wives. It says women. I do not know of any verse that states sex with spouses to be permissible. Rather it always uses the term nisa meaning sex is permissible with women. But obviously not just any women. Whether it's limited to zawj women or not is what we're trying to figure out here.

Can you clarify for the forum what method you used and how much research you did before making the above statement? (or just the part in bold if my request is too taxing)

This is to help forum members evaluate your study method and thoroughness, and perhaps bear this in mind when reading your posts on this topic.

Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

nimnimak_11

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Re: sex before marriage
« Reply #223 on: May 25, 2010, 02:07:21 PM »
peace,

Can you clarify for the forum what method you used and how much research you did before making the above statement? (or just the part in bold if my request is too taxing)

This is to help forum members evaluate your study method and thoroughness, and perhaps bear this in mind when reading your posts on this topic.

Thanks.

Peace Wakas

In this instance I did not search anything. I used my memory because before (not so long ago) I used the old version of globalquran and used it to search all the verses that included the following words: wife, spouse. I ticked all english translations to increase my chance of obtaining all relevant verses

Then going on to free-minds.org, i chose the Quran section (as this would also provide the arabic version of verses from the Quran) Using the verses i had found from globalquran i individually went after them in arabic to see whether the term zawj or nisa or some other term is used. I did this because i found some translators translated nisa to wife (as was the case with 2:223) and i did not agree with this.

With respect to the issue of sex, from what i picked up in the verses which i got from globalquran, i went to see what arabic word actually means sex in the verses which it was used. I used corpus.quran.com/wordbyword which not only provided the arabic word but also the root of the word which in turn meant that i could use the good resources at studyquran.co.uk/PRlonline to find the meanings of the root and verses it occures at.

Then i looked at those verses to see if there were any verses which implied sex to be exclusive for marriage and found none. The term zawj (if i remember correctly) was used but not in a manner that made sex exclusive to zawj because there were verses with regards to sex with nisa. Thus i concluded sex not to be exclusive to zawj and that is why I wrote in my second to last post which you have quoted "I do not know of any verse that states sex with spouses to be permissible".

However you will find in my post after the one you have quoted, that i have cited 24:33 which i remember last discussing on the other thread. I do not know of any other verses which literally state that sex is permissible with zawj. Although it should be said 24:33 does not state this but it still does strongly imply that sex is best left till marriage. What i wrote in my post which you have quoted, was meant zawj exclusively. I should have clarified.

If there are any other questions or pieces of advice or criticism then do post as it is better said then not IMO.

nimnimak_11

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Re: sex before marriage
« Reply #224 on: May 25, 2010, 02:34:38 PM »
Peace all

For clarification purposes.

What i meant when i said "I do not know of any verse that states sex with spouses to be permissible" was a verse literally saying you can have sex with your zawj or that sex with your zawj has been made permissible. The sort you'll find applied to nisa in 2:187.

The reason i said this was to emphasise how there are no verses that make the act permissible and no verses that make the act forbidden exclusively with spouse. I had however forgotten about 24:33 which does imply the act to be exclusive with the zawj.

Sorry about any misunderstandings. I was writing in haste. Hope this clarifies.

Wakas

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Re: sex before marriage
« Reply #225 on: May 25, 2010, 04:30:38 PM »
peace nimnimak_11,

When cross-referencing a word, you should use the root occurrences, not an English word search via an English translation. To find the Arabic root now is extremely simple with corpus.quran.com In fact, now there is no excuse because it could not be easier, anyone can do it.

The reason I asked what I did was to highlight your methodology and reasoning, which I have found to be quite poor. By adopting a poor method you are doomed to this type of outcome and/or a struggle for the answer. Understanding AQ is quite simple BUT it requires the reader to follow ITS method/thinking in order to determine what it is saying. This is the hard part: making oneself conform to it rather than making it conform to you. This is the struggle we all face. Until you conquer yourself you will struggle to conquer it. I simply cannot stress this enough.

In any case, here are some simple examples:

Is zawj the exclusive word for spouse in AQ? (this is your underlying assumption it would seem)
What is the Arabic word for "sex"? What are the variations, if any?
Is your statement of "sex with nisa" the same as AQ saying "sex with YOUR nisa"?
You mention 2:223 and dismiss it, but if you had studied only a few verses further you would have found some evidence.


For an article on study method, I recommend:
http://www.quran434.com/study-method.html


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

David_K

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Re: sex before marriage
« Reply #226 on: May 26, 2010, 05:47:48 AM »
Peace Nima

Wakas gave you some good advice. This is advice we all can learn from. Conforming to the message is higly important if you want to make a quality study of it.


"When man doesn't change his life to fit his faith, he will change his faith to fit his life."


SwedenMajidah

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Re: sex before marriage
« Reply #227 on: May 26, 2010, 10:19:21 AM »
Peace,

Long time I posted here...

Sex before marriage: well we can do as we please but the only one we fool is ourselves anyway.

I am very openminded as everyone knows :) Sex is a very private issue and during this awaken time we are living there are loads of information
to both gain from and misleading too as well.

Everyone has to find his own understanding and that goes for all issues.

Quran is a reminder and very deep scripture and it's purpose is the best for mankind. So if you still think that God, Allah, Jehova etc is going to put you in hell because you have sinned and have sex before marriage then you haven't really yet leveled up to what Quran and Islam is about.

When we do something that is not good for us we will create a bad condition and this if repeated can be like a living hell for us. same goes for good things
and then instead you create a paradise for yourself already here on earth. All good things we collect will be brought back to us in so much power. More good you do more good you will gain and more bad you do more bad you will feel.

The best thing is to keep to one partner and search for your soulmate that is the ideal way.  Sex is desire and you can feed it in many ways not necessary to have sexual intercourse with someone. Touch yourself is a good solution for both gender, and it's clean and safe too.

Peace

Maria

nimnimak_11

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Re: sex before marriage
« Reply #228 on: May 26, 2010, 01:43:38 PM »
Peace Wakas

Quote
When cross-referencing a word, you should use the root occurrences, not an English word search via an English translation. To find the Arabic root now is extremely simple with corpus.quran.com In fact, now there is no excuse because it could not be easier, anyone can do it.
I did use corpus to find the arabic words which in the Quran were translated as sex or something associated with sex and in turn i also used it to find the roots of those words. After finding the roots, i used studyquran to find out the possible meaning of the roots and the verses in which they occur. I did say this in my last post. Do you mean that in the case of searching for women i should have also used the corpus method? In that case I had some familiarity with nisa and zawj and thus jumped straight onto studyquran to get the meaning of the roots. The english word search using global Quran was useful in picking out words translated to wife or husband in which the arabic was not zawj as it also had the arabic text available to compare with the english translation. From this i found a root meaning husband that did not belong to zawj. I do not know of any other way i could have achieved this. If there is, please let me know.

Quote
The reason I asked what I did was to highlight your methodology and reasoning, which I have found to be quite poor.
Could you be more specific with regards to my reasoning and also i know you mentioned the use of corpus with regards to method but if possible could you point out other issues with my method?

Quote
Understanding AQ is quite simple BUT it requires the reader to follow ITS method/thinking in order to determine what it is saying. This is the hard part: making oneself conform to it rather than making it conform to you. This is the struggle we all face. Until you conquer yourself you will struggle to conquer it. I simply cannot stress this enough.
Thank you for the reminder

Quote
Is zawj the exclusive word for spouse in AQ? (this is your underlying assumption it would seem)
No it is not. I have come across a different word for husband which i found interesting as it could have implied zawj to not necessarily mean spouse but rather it could have literally just mean a pair in which this would have also been applicable to girlfriends and finaces but i did not find another word for wife as i did for husband.

Quote
What is the Arabic word for "sex"? What are the variations, if any?
I remember coming across more than one root which conveyed the meaning of sex. Is that what you mean by variations?

Quote
Is your statement of "sex with nisa" the same as AQ saying "sex with YOUR nisa"?
No it's not. Godwilling I'l be more specific next time. That does make a noticable difference

Quote
You mention 2:223 and dismiss it, but if you had studied only a few verses further you would have found some evidence.
In the other thread, Sarah said the same thing with regards to another verse. What you are considering evidence here with the verses that come later on, i do not. 2:223 uses women as opposed to zawj implying that other classes of women are included. Now i'm guessing you take the verses that come a little later on should apply to 2:223. But why and how? I can see how this should be done with use of nisa in verse 2:226 as divorce is used in which it is directly alway related to spouse. But in the case of 2:223 There is no link unless we force one.

Look at these verses:
2:237   And if you divorce them before having sexual intercourse with them, but you have already set the dowry for them; then you must give half of what you have agreed, unless they forgive or the guardian over the marriage contract forgives. And if you forgive, it is closer to righteousness. And do not forget the favor between you; God is Seer of what you do.
2:238   Maintain the contact prayers; and the middle contact prayer; and stand for God dutifully.
2:239   But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
2:240   And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do with themselves of goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.
2:241   And for those divorced to have a recompense is an obligation upon the righteous.

Salat verses are sandwhiched in between divorce verses. If we look before and after, the verses are talking of marital issues. Should 2:238-239 be somehow forced into relation with marital issues? If so why?

Quote
For an article on study method, I recommend:
http://www.quran434.com/study-method.html
Thanks. I'l look at this before i do more Quranic studying.


[/quote]

nimnimak_11

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Re: sex before marriage
« Reply #229 on: May 26, 2010, 02:03:36 PM »
Peace,

Long time I posted here...

Sex before marriage: well we can do as we please but the only one we fool is ourselves anyway.

I am very openminded as everyone knows :) Sex is a very private issue and during this awaken time we are living there are loads of information
to both gain from and misleading too as well.

Everyone has to find his own understanding and that goes for all issues.

Quran is a reminder and very deep scripture and it's purpose is the best for mankind. So if you still think that God, Allah, Jehova etc is going to put you in hell because you have sinned and have sex before marriage then you haven't really yet leveled up to what Quran and Islam is about.

When we do something that is not good for us we will create a bad condition and this if repeated can be like a living hell for us. same goes for good things
and then instead you create a paradise for yourself already here on earth. All good things we collect will be brought back to us in so much power. More good you do more good you will gain and more bad you do more bad you will feel.

The best thing is to keep to one partner and search for your soulmate that is the ideal way.  Sex is desire and you can feed it in many ways not necessary to have sexual intercourse with someone. Touch yourself is a good solution for both gender, and it's clean and safe too.

Peace

Maria

Peace Sweden Majidah

I do agree that sex is private and so is the exposure of private parts. But that is why 23:5-6 limits this exposure or unguarding to our Zawjs and MMAs (ma malekat aymunkum) Other verses do seem to imply that sex is for marriage meaning that sex is not permissible or advisable with our MMAs. However nothing else is restricted so long as it does not count as lewdness. That is what i am currently trying to get across. Though I'm not sure on what an MMA is, i strongly think that it also entails girlfriends and finaces.

I agree with your ideal way.
The touch your self solution :rotfl: could have some issues for us males but not too serious. The issue isn't controling the desire to have sex, rather it is the desire to carry out what i see with my heart and reason as acceptable and good. In addition to this, it is also not to prohibit something which God may have made lawful. 

With regards to the touch your self solution I do feel that 24:30 implies that it is better for us....not to touch ourselves. The word translated as guard also means preserve, prevent a thing from perishing. I do think that it may be related to...touching one self but my assertion is quiet farfetched so i'm not sure.