Is Swine Hallal

[naxus]

Peace all i,m having discussion on the above topic with PRIEST_BOKMEI on the thread IS OPINION/CONJECTURE, RELATIVE TO ALLAH AND DEEN...LYING? since there r no replies on the thread i decide to open this thread to reach on the clear understanding according to PRIEST_BOKMEI the flesh of Swine is Hallal here r his reasons
 PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote

It is my understanding now that the flesh of swine is not haram to eat. Let me leave you with this:


6:146 And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.


5:5 This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.


Where, in Al-Quran, can one find Allah making the flesh of swine haram for the Jews? Allah says that He only prohibited them the fat of oxen, sheep, and animals with claws. Ayat 5:5 makes clear that the food of the People of the Book and our food are lawful to each other. With this in mind then...how is the flesh of swine haram for us, the muslim?

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote

PRIEST: Where, in Al-Quran, can one find Allah making the flesh of swine haram for the Jews? Allah says that He only prohibited them the fat of oxen, sheep, and animals with claws. Ayat 5:5 makes clear that the food of the People of the Book and our food are lawful to each other. With this in mind then...how is the flesh of swine haram for us, the muslim?


Quote:
Well Allah make the flesh of swine haram here is the verse 6.145

YUSUFALI: Say: "I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's". But (even so), if a person is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- thy Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.  



Thank you for your reply. Here's the problem though. According to Al-Quran, the Jews were only forbidden to eat animals with claws and the fat ox oxen and sheep, except, what adhered to the bones. If ayat 6:145 is translated properly, then we have a contradiction/discrepancy in Al-Quran. What I mean is, according to Al-Quran Allah did not prohibit the Jews from eating swine, hence, it must be lawful for them, and their food and our food is lawful for each other...how, then, can the flesh of swine be haram? Do you see my question?

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote

According to Al-Quran, the Jews were only forbidden to eat animals with claws and the fat ox oxen and sheep, except, what adhered to the bones. If ayat 6:145 is translated properly, then we have a contradiction/discrepancy in Al-Quran. What I mean is, according to Al-Quran Allah did not prohibit the Jews from eating swine, hence, it must be lawful for them, and their food and our food is lawful for each other...how, then, can the flesh of swine be haram?

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote

2. Ayats 6:143 and 5:3, if they are translated correctly, create a discrepancy/contradiction within Al-Quran. We know it is impossible for ayats to contradict one anohter, hence, either both ayats are translated incorrectly or one of them is. Which ayat, given the all of the evidence presented, do you conclude is mistranslated? Abdul Omar Mannan, in his "Dictionary of the Holy Quran", writes the following concerning the definition of khaniza (so-called swine):


Main Entry: KHANIZA: compound word comprised of khinz-bad and ara- I see it bad; to stink; to be evil; to be bad; dirty; piggy; pig/swine/hog; proud; greedy; stubborn, obstinate, stupidly perverse. pg.166


3. The question is, which of the definitions, given all the evidence, is Allah using in Al-Quran? Is it the animal pig or the immoral behavior of people?

PRIEST_BOKMEI wrote

Lahma khanzeerin, in Al-Quran, does not mean pig, but "flesh that is seen as bad". Khanzeerin, according to The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar, is a compound term. So, khanzeerin, in all of the ayats in which we find this term, means...that which is "seen as bad

the above r the understanding of PRIEST_BOKMEI wut do u think is he right or wrong wut do u think plz explain so we could have a clear understanding on that peace

[Jaxal]

SaLaM naxus

PRIEST's argument is this verse:

[5.5]
This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

But then God also clearly mentions what is halal for us to eat in these 2 verses:

[2.173]
He Has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

[16.115]
He only made forbidden for you what is already dead, and blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to any other than God. But whoever is forced to without disobedience or transgression, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.

EVEN THO the food of the people of the previous scriptures is halal on us, God mentions, in my opinion, what is NOT halah for US. Its beyond me why it can be such a difficult thing to understand. If anything, one can argue maybe the FAT of the pig is halal, which i believe Rashid Khalifa did.

[albion]

Ayat 5:5 makes clear that the food of the People of the Book and our food are lawful to each other. With this in mind then...how is the flesh of swine haram for us, the muslim?

Swine is Unlawful because it is already unlawful to the people of the book and since what is unlawful to them is also unlawful to muslims as per verse 5:5


-----------------------------
Lawful Meats

"Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat" Leviticus" 11:3

The criteria for lawful meat is that the animal must split the hoof and chew the cud. This rules out pork and makes it unlawful.

Anything without hooves is unlawful. This rules out reptiles, rodents, and anything with paws. Apes, cats, dogs, snakes, Cheetah, elephant, hippopotamus, lion, rhinocerous, bear, raccoon, rattlesnake and squirrel, all unlawful meats for Jews and Christians so are also Unlawful for muslims per quran verse 5:5

Animals with unsplit hooves are also Unlawful. So horses, donkeys, zebras are Unlawful.

Animals that have split hooves, but don't have a cud to chew are Unlawful. The only animal in this group is swine so it is Unlawful.

-----------------------------

Seafood

"And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you" Leviticus 11:10

Any sea creature with scales and fins are lawful.

Catfish, eel, sturgeon, alligator, crocodile, dolphin, dugong, manatee, seal, shark, squid, walrus, and whales are all Unlawful.

Frogs are also Unlawful under both land creatures and water creature rules..

-----------------------------

Fat is Unlawful


"Ye shall eat no manner of fat, of ox, or of sheep, or of goat. " Leviticus 7:23


-----------------------------

Blood is Unlawful

"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye NOT eat" Genesis 9:4


-----------------------------

Vegetables and Herbs

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food" Genesis 1:29

All fruits, vegetables and Herbs are Lawful as long as they bear seeds.

[Jaxal]

SaLaM

Forgive me for maybe going off topic here, but are the seedless green grapes unlawful? I actually liked them becoz they had no seeds  

[Tony]

Priest Bomkei has a very good and logical point. I hope Layth and the other experts in classical Arabic put forth their comments here.

[SwedenMajidah]

Salaam Br Jaxal,

I can assure you that is fine to eat those seedless grapes and in Quran it doesn't say anything of seedless herbs or vegetables/fruits.

And I believe that the jews got those restrictions because of their sins, therefore God show us in Quran new rules for the believers, why should we follow their punishments!?

One intresting thing is can the fat and bones and skins of pig being halal?

Then it isn't haram to eat gelatine!?

Well I'm not eating gelatine myself because I'm a vegetarian and I choose agar agar from the sea instead of gelatine.

Peace
Sis Majidah

[el-Aziz]

And I believe that the jews got those restrictions because of their sins, therefore God show us in Quran new rules for the believers, why should we follow their punishments!?

I don't know how much of what you just said is to be taken literally, but I'm absolutely certain that God doesn't punish us after have commited a sin by stripping us of the numbers of dietical options in our lives. Rather is this a way to describe what has happened.

tja!
/St?phane

[albion]

therefore God show us in Quran new rules for the believers

There are no new rules in the quran, verse 5:5 says everything that is unlawful/lawful to the people of the book is also unlawful/lawful to muslims and there is nothing new that has been added or taken away from those food laws.

"and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them"

There is no difference between food laws of the OT and the quran other than the fact the the OT goes into more detail

[Ash Shuura]

Swine is Unlawful because it is already unlawful to the people of the book and since what is unlawful to them is also unlawful to muslims as per verse 5:5

Albion,

Little confused with your position. Who is right according to your scriptures? The Jews or the Christians? If this is said in their books why do christians eat pork?

I don't understand...

[PRIEST_BOKMEI]

PEACE, SWEDEN MAJIDAH AND ALL,

One intresting thing is can the fat and bones and skins of pig being halal?  Then it isn't haram to eat gelatine!?

The key ayat in this discussion is the following:


6:146 And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.


3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.


Clearly, in ayat 6:146, Allah did not prohibit the Jews from eating swine.  If swine were indeed haram for them, why, then, did Allah not mention it ayat 6:146 as one of the haram things for Jews?  Ayat 3:50 states that Jesus, was told to make part of what what was forbidden the Jews lawful, although, Allah doesn't state in Quran what it was.  Some want to fall back on what is said in the Torah, however, Allah has made also clear that the Jews tampered with the Law of Moses and made some things unlawful for themselves.  


Main Entry: LAHAMA/FLESH: flesh; the soft tissue of the body of a verterbrate, covering the bones and consisting mainly of skeletal bone and fat; the surface of the human body. American Heritage Dictionary 4th Edition


Main Entry: SHAHAMA: fat: suet.


Above, is the definition for flesh, hence, it is a particular part of animal.  As you've pointed out, gelatin, is not flesh, but from the fat of pigs or other animals.  Thus, gelatin, cannot be haram, because it is not lahma/flesh, but fat tissue.  With this in mind then, if Allah had intended that muslims not eat the pig, why then didn't He simply say...forbidden to you as food is the swine?  This simple phrasing, as with the term zina, would be comprehensive and would have left no loop holes...for the believers anyway.  Also, given that gelatin is made from fat, why, then, did Allah, as in the case of the Jews, not forbid the fat/shahama of the swine?  As Allah chooses His terms, clearly then, flesh/lahma and fat/shahama, are not the same thing.

As nothing can escape the knowledge of Allah, it is not possible that He could not have foreseen the flesh versus fat/gelatin argument, as this would have  constituted a discrepancy within His Quran.


Why ayats 6:146 and 5:5 are so pivotal to the question the swine being haram or not for humanity, is because the one thing humanity can count on is that, Al-Quran is the unadulterated truth from Allah [the bible we know has flaws/contradictions/discrepancies in it, and the Jews made laws on their own].  With this in mind then, humanity knows for certain what Allah forbade the Jews, there simply is no question about this.  Now, given that nowhere in Al-Quran does Allah forbid the Jews to eat swine, hence, it was lawful to them, and ayat 5:5 states that their food and out food are halal for each other, lahma khinzeerin, then, cannot mean the animal pig.


Looking forward to your reply.