Author Topic: 4:101-103  (Read 6164 times)

Joe Betik

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Re: 4:101-103
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2009, 02:39:55 AM »
salamun alayk ibrahim-khalil,

if you believe that:
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These ayahas looks like the recommendations about prayer ritual in danger situations.

then you have the full rights to act accordingly. i have never asked you or anyone else to take my personal comprehension for the truth and sole truth. it's your personal choice to believe or disbelieve. likewise it is within your full rights to believe whatever you choose to believe.

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Why change the whole meaning just to see what the person want?

please note that i do not change the meaning according to my whims and fancy. please study the arabic language and culture before attempting to comment/criticize my personal comprehension. please...

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I like your interpretation, but answer my questions, i always think about this.

it matters not whether you like or dislike my personal comprehension (not 'interpretation' please). please ask God about it, and plead to be guided on the truth. i cannot help, other than informing you on how to attain an understanding or to discover the truth. the truth is with God. so ask Him, please.

and be at peace
mohammed noh
"When you realize the difference between the container and the content,
you will have knowledge."

- Idries Shah

Wakas

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Re: 4:101-103
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 02:30:45 AM »
Peace,

Peace Wakas,

Wa-itha  kunta  feehim (4:102)

How can we conclude that ?kunta? refers to the prophet? Can?t it refer to any body?


Sorry, I only read your post just now.

As far as I am aware, in this verse, it is the singular, so in this example, it very likely is the prophet, but in terms of utilising this example for future generations, then it implies a person can conduct/lead the regular/timed salat/homage, in a group based setting.

I am not sure if this answers your question, if not, please clarify.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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loli

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Re: 4:101-103
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 07:32:40 PM »
Peace Wakas, All,

My opinion is that 4:101 and 4:102 is for a different audience;

4:101 And when you(pl) are journeying in the land there is no fault in you(pl) that you shorten the prayer, if you(pl) fear the unbelievers may afflict you(pl); the unbelievers are for you(pl) a manifest foe.

4:102 When thou(s) art amongst them, and performest for them the prayer, let a party of them stand with thee(s), and let them take their weapons. When they bow themselves, let them be behind you(pl); and let another party who have not prayed come and pray with thee(s), taking their precautions and their weapons. The unbelievers wish that you should be heedless of your weapons and your baggage, then they would wheel on you all at once. There is no fault in you, if rain molests you, or you are sick, to lay aside your weapons; but take your precautions. God has prepared for the unbelievers a humbling chastisement.

In 4:101; it refers the second person as plural
while in 4:102 it refers the second person as singular.

Hence there is a change of audience

Any comments/ corrections is appreciated
23:97-98. And Say: ?My Lord, I seek refuge with you from the whispers of the devils.??And I seek refuge with you O Lord that they should come near.?

Wakas

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Re: 4:101-103
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2012, 12:30:50 AM »
peace loli,

Yes, for an explanation, or at least my view, see:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

(near the end of that page)
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

loli

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Re: 4:101-103
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2012, 01:40:34 AM »
Peace Wakas,

Thanx for your insight on the word Sujud in 4:102

I was actually looking for the for grammatical evidence (for or againts) that the 4:101 and 4:102 is not connected, so far i found that 4:101 audience is plural; it may be a group of people listening to the prophet
In 4:102;  the audience is singular (my opinion its the prophet or the leader in the salat).

Aidid safr group is telling that the people refered in 4:102 is the mushrikeen just as you explain in the beginning of the thread. Just thought of asking whether is there any other gramatical evidence that points otherwise.

regards
loli
23:97-98. And Say: ?My Lord, I seek refuge with you from the whispers of the devils.??And I seek refuge with you O Lord that they should come near.?

Wakas

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Re: 4:101-103
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2012, 04:15:04 AM »
My evidence is as follows, posted in this thread: logic + grammar:

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peace be upon you Ash,

I was unaware "experienced scholars" debate this issue. I would be interested to hear the actual arguments if this is the case.

Here is my reasoning...

4:101 discusses slw for the messenger and those with him, no-one else.

Prior to 4:102, the subject of reference when using "...kum/hum" is NEVER the kafireen. It references the messenger and those with him. And this is how it continues into 4:102.

4:102 - 'min' is a partitive, so when it says 'minhum' (from them) it is talking about a section from the people referenced. Its unlikely it references two types of groups at the same time, using one "...kum/hum". Examples showing this is done in other places will have to be demonstrated otherwise.

In times of fear, upholding/establishing the slw in two groups in a rotational manner makes sense.

If you feel those referenced at the beginning of 4:102 are the KFR, then please put in KFR into the translation to see if it holds.


Wakas

Aidid Safar is good at pointing out problems with the traditional understandings, but when it comes to understanding Quran by Quran, it's hit and miss, i.e. quite poor.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

loli

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Re: 4:101-103
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2012, 02:37:35 AM »
Salam Wakas,

Thanx for sharing your views and i agree with your observation on Aidid safar's group.

Howerver im not sure how the partitive nature of "min hum" could help in the current understanding.

However you explanation make sense.
23:97-98. And Say: ?My Lord, I seek refuge with you from the whispers of the devils.??And I seek refuge with you O Lord that they should come near.?

progressive1993

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Re: 4:101-103
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2017, 02:34:23 AM »
4:101 And when you (plural) are traveling in the land, there is no harm that you (plural) shorten the salat, if you (plural) fear that alatheena kafaroo will try you (plural). Al kafireena are to you (PLURAL) a clear enemy.

1. As per my current understanding, there is a difference between alatheena kafaroo (those who are lost in darkness/indifferent to warning) and al kafireena (the hypocrites). 2:6-7 gives the definition for alatheena kafaroo while 2:8-2:20 describes al kafireena. Alatheena kafaroo are the enemy that is attacking the believers while al kafireena are the internal enemy.

2. The last group/people mentoned in plural in verse 4:101 is "you" (i.e. the believers). Thus, the first few instances of "them" upholding the salat in 4:102 refer to the believers. It is subtle, but still indicates that it is the believers that are upholding the salat with the messenger.

It thus reads:

4:102 And when you (singular - i.e. the messenger) are with them (plural - i.e. the believers) and uphold the salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons. When they have submitted...
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Lost

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Re: 4:101-103
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2017, 04:08:07 AM »
Verse 4:102 is definitely the one that deals the final blow to the concept of a ritual prayer the way traditionalists view it. When read in conjunction with other verses it appears clear that salat was some kind of meeting dedicated to god and was essentially revolving around the quran. Exposing the traditionalist to this verse is the best way to show him that the ritual which he thinks is the key to paradise has in fact nothing to do with what salat is intented to be. Think about it, a gathering of some sort with real and substantial reading is way more beneficial for the believers than the pointless individual gymnastic and the parroting of a few surah here and there, so much so that it becomes ridiculous that, given the importance of the concept of salat in the quran, we even think of it as some sort of ritual. That's why I will never understand why some self-pretending quran only believers are still trying to interpret salat as rituals. They just can't throw away any past preconceived notion while approaching the quran and they're thus subconsciously sticking to their traditionalist past.

good logic

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Re: 4:101-103
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2017, 04:40:51 AM »
Peace Lost.

By all means,give us your take on the meanings of the "Aquimi Saat" verses.
Only make sure that you bring all your evidence from Qoran using all the verses with "Aquimi Salat" in them.
We already know that "Salat" is not a ritual,this is easy to establish from Qoran,but the problem for you and others is "Aquimi Salat".
Simple questions like:
What is "Aquimi Salat"?
What gathering are people talking about?
What does 5:6 mean?
What is "specific times"?
...etc.
We are all ears,since you say,quote:
 That's why I will never understand why some self-pretending quran only believers are still trying to interpret salat as rituals. They just can't throw away any past preconceived notion while approaching the quran and they're thus subconsciously sticking to their traditionalist past.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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