Author Topic: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?  (Read 3004 times)

SAbboushi

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2017, 01:21:39 PM »
Thanks for your post.

The prefix إِلۡ is ...
I'm not sure it meets the definition of a prefix since it is written as a separate word

The prefix إِلۡ is ... not likely to be the definite article (the) because the definite article never occurs with a Kasra in Arabic.
Agreed -- and I find that huruf has already proven this to my satisfaction by pointing out "You are mixing up two different roots. you equate 'ill with 'aal. They are two different words from two different roots."

The suffix يَاسِين is peculiar in that it phonetically spells out the first verse of chapter 36, whether this has any bearing on the meaning I cannot say.
Interesting


Again, what is unique about this is that when the Quran is parsed into words, numerous translators and institutions have chosen to treat these two words as one.  Even though the Quran has other proper names which consist of multiple words, they are parsed as multiple words, e.g.
Dhul-Kifl written as two words (separated by space) ذَا ٱلْكِفْلِ and parsed as 2 words:
38:48:4 وَذَا
38:48:5 ٱلْكِفْلِ

"إِلْ يَاسِينَ" is the only instance in the Quran where two words are parsed as one word.

One can say that "But Dhul-Kifl is a proper name made from Arabic words" and "إِلْ يَاسِينَ" is a foreign proper name.

Which then makes me wonder why, if it's a foreign name meaning we don't understand it's lexical/morphological construction, would it make sense to write a single proper name as two words in the first place?

And so another question that comes to my mind is whether or not there is a difference in pronunciation between "إِلْ يَاسِينَ" and "إِلْيَاسِينَ"?  Can any native Arabic speakers weigh in on that?

I believe Mazhar is saying that there is a difference:
Not two words, it is one word; pause after first syllable -- if space is not there the word gets conjoined, and there will be no pause. The word is spelled to mimic the sound of name in original language.
I've listened to several different recitations of verses 37:130 and 37:123.
I can't for the life of me hear any (more of a) pause after the "ل" in the 37:130 recitation of إِلْ يَاسِينَ than after the "ل" in the 37:123 recitation of "إِلياسَ":
37:130 http://www.openburhan.net/?sid=37&vid=130
37:123 http://www.openburhan.net/?sid=37&vid=123

Can someone who speaks Arabic fluently please confirm they hear a pause?


Bear in mind that two other Readings (Nāfi' and Ibn 'Āmir) report the construction as آلِ يَاسِين ...

I don't know what you mean by "report the construction".  I believe the readings are "readings", not "writings" (i.e. they are written representations of a style(?) of recitation).  I have "written" copies of 14 different readings (Riwayat), and all copies write it as "إِلْ يَاسِينَ".  But I don't believe this confirms whether or not those two "words" are really one lexical word with an embedded space and thus one lexical meaning (i.e. a variation of the word Ily?s per Omar).

huruf

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Re: Why is it written إل ياسين instead of إلياسين in 37:130?
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2017, 01:08:06 AM »
The word إِلياسَ, as it happens all the time with the Qur'an is a case with the tendency to assign proper names that bear not connection to their meaning, and many times to to understand that they do not come from Arabic, but are forewign words that are transcribed some way.

In fact, if I am not seeing wrong, the word itself is a very common word pattern in Arabic of the same form as  إِسْلَٰم

So if we look at the value of root lam-ya-seen, its meaning is given in the dictionnaries as "to be brave, valiant, courageous" , in form II, lam-ya-ya-seen, it would be "to stick to, to plaster..."

So, in fact, Ilyas as character, whether single person or group, would be considered as a somebody distinguished by their courage and steafastness.

So indeed I tend to agree withgood logic's take that the expression  إِلْ يَاسِينَ  'ill yaasin, two words, is a play of words to mean the people that as 'Ilyaas who were like him, stedfast and courageous. That is, he left spiritual inheritors.

I do not see as a mere ressort to get out of a grammar or phonetical jam, but as an ingenious way to express a spiritual tradition of which 'ilyaas would be the mark and example.

And 'Ilyaas is not foreign word but a clear marking of the distinguished trait of one of the prophets and his following. It is a proper name, but a meaning that has become a proper name for their holders.

Salaam

Salaam