Author Topic: The incorruptible mighty book  (Read 5092 times)

mhsultan

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The incorruptible mighty book
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2005, 08:32:25 PM »
Thanks so much for the link brother Tanveer, Peace!

tanveermd

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The incorruptible mighty book
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2005, 02:08:13 AM »
Salaamun alaikum brother Ayman,

Thank you for your translation and understanding of the relevant signs, which clarifies al-masjid al-haram being a non-physical place. I understood how "al-3akif"  should be translated as "the one committed in it" instead of "dweller" but can you please explain what you mean by "the one who left to find clarity" instead of "visitor" as the translation for "al-bad" ? Where did one leave from ?

God bless,

Tanveer

ayman

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The incorruptible mighty book
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2005, 08:13:22 AM »
Peace brother Tanveer,

Quote from: "tanveermd"
Thank you for your translation and understanding of the relevant signs, which clarifies al-masjid al-haram being a non-physical place. I understood how "al-3akif"  should be translated as "the one committed in it" instead of "dweller" but can you please explain what you mean by "the one who left to find clarity" instead of "visitor" as the translation for "al-bad" ? Where did one leave from ?


If you look under the Arabic root "BDW", you will find that it has meanings such as "made apparent/clear" (39:47-48, 45:33, etc.), "occur to/think of" (12:35), and left where they were (33:20). The word "badw" is applied to people who leave where they are to search for something such as grazing places or water. So you can see that the themes of leaving, searching and making clear/apparent are the main themes that run through that word. Thus, "al-bad" in the context of 22:25 is someone who left what they were on (examples include Christianity, Sunnism, or any inherited dogma). They left in order to search for what? From the other meanings of "BDW", it can be deduced that they left to search for clarity. Thus, my translation of "al-bad" is "one who left to search" or "one who left to search for clarity".

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

/*JM*/

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Re: The incorruptible mighty book
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2006, 08:46:09 AM »
What is interesting to note here is that Jacob refers to three entities, Muhajirin (Muslims), pagans, and Jews. What is surprising is that according to Jacob, Arab paganism continued to exist as late as the beginning of the eighth century. This is in line with the Ummayyad policy of secular tolerance towards other beliefs as long as they paid taxes as other contemporaneous eye witnesses reported in their manuscripts as we saw earlier.

Peace Ayman,

We never heard about the shia in these reports. What were they doing during these times ?
Why would not the shia be those called pagans ?

And what about the persians ?

And what do you think about that ?

4.Fredegar, a Frankish Chronicler (wr. 650s).The Hagarenes, who are also called Saracens . . . —a circumcised people who of old had lived beneath the Caucasus on the shores of the Caspian in a country known as Ercolia

Peace

ayman

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Re: The incorruptible mighty book
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2006, 07:36:36 PM »
Peace JM,

We never heard about the shia in these reports. What were they doing during these times ?
Why would not the shia be those called pagans ?

We don't hear about Muslims, Sunnis or Shias. Up to this point the religion whose proper name is Islam hasn't been invented yet.

Sunnis and Shias started out as political groups and later morphed into sects. This is what naturally happens when people use religion to further political agenda.

And what about the persians ?

And what do you think about that ?

4.Fredegar, a Frankish Chronicler (wr. 650s).The Hagarenes, who are also called Saracens . . . ?a circumcised people who of old had lived beneath the Caucasus on the shores of the Caspian in a country known as Ercolia

Thank you for the interesting quote. I think that the quote from Fredgar is in line with Saracens being from an area on the border of the Persian empire. I think that given the fact that there were no accurate maps at the time, he perhaps mixed the shores of the Caspian with the shores of the Persian gulf. The area on the Arab side of the Persian Gulf was the domain of the Lakhmids who were allies of the Persians.

Peace,

Ayman

David

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Re: The incorruptible mighty book
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2006, 12:53:12 AM »
Peace Ayman, all,

Quote
I think that given the fact that there were no accurate maps at the time, he perhaps mixed the shores of the Caspian with the shores of the Persian gulf.

Quote
a circumcised people who of old had lived beneath the Caucasus on the shores of the Caspian in a country known as Ercolia

I think it is highly unlikely that he mistook the Caspian for the Persian gulf for several reasons.

1.) He mentions the Caucuses which are located near the Caspian Sea. (He would have had to be wrong about both the Caucuses and the Caspian).
2.) Even assuming that they didn't have accurate maps, which is unlikely, the geography is very different between the Caspian and the Persian Gulf, including the land that must be crossed to get to those regions .
3.) The waters of the Caspian Sea and Persian Gulf are quite different.

However, he does say
Quote
a circumcised people who of old had lived beneath the Caucasus
,

which seems to infer that they had originated from that area, but no longer lived there.

peace
"Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire." 3:191

ayman

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Re: The incorruptible mighty book
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2006, 03:50:15 PM »
Peace David,

Quote
I think that given the fact that there were no accurate maps at the time, he perhaps mixed the shores of the Caspian with the shores of the Persian gulf.

Quote
a circumcised people who of old had lived beneath the Caucasus on the shores of the Caspian in a country known as Ercolia

I think it is highly unlikely that he mistook the Caspian for the Persian gulf for several reasons.

1.) He mentions the Caucuses which are located near the Caspian Sea. (He would have had to be wrong about both the Caucuses and the Caspian).
2.) Even assuming that they didn't have accurate maps, which is unlikely, the geography is very different between the Caspian and the Persian Gulf, including the land that must be crossed to get to those regions .
3.) The waters of the Caspian Sea and Persian Gulf are quite different.

However, he does say
Quote
a circumcised people who of old had lived beneath the Caucasus
,

which seems to infer that they had originated from that area, but no longer lived there.

I don't disagree with you. All I am saying is that there could be different interpretations of Fredegar's words. From physical archeological evidence, we know that the script and language of the great reading wasn't used in the Caucuses but was used around the western and south western shores of the Persian gulf. So we have to evaluate all the evidence and not base anything on just one thing that someone said. This is especially the case if the person, in all likelihood was not from the area. So one of the possibilities is that, as you said, the chronicler believed that the ancestors of the Arabs (not the Arabs of his time) came from the Caucasus region.

Peace,

Ayman

maxq

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Re: The incorruptible mighty book
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2007, 08:15:25 PM »
OMG!!! :shock:

Where was this thread before! Bro Ayman, very informative!! I cannot find the thread that prompted the start of one though, so I am at a loss (partially)
בשס האלה השדי והרחס - האלה ור השמים והארץ

adjwi

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Re: The incorruptible mighty book
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2007, 07:28:18 AM »
Salam maxq,

You will find the beginning of this thread that you brought forward here. Unfortunately I coudn't insert the hyperlink to go directly. I'm not sure what I did wrong, but anyhow this should help.

Free-Minds > General Issues / Questions > General Issues / Questions (Moderators: TheNabi, Wakas, idolfree1, Tay, savage_carrot, Nadeem) > The problem with Islam

The problem with Islam
? on: July 02, 2005, 06:19:21 AM ?
 
adjwi


maxq

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Re: The incorruptible mighty book
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2007, 07:31:52 AM »
thanks adjwi, but the link is broken
בשס האלה השדי והרחס - האלה ור השמים והארץ