Author Topic: The Real Messenger of the Covenant  (Read 26029 times)

Fahad

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Re: You are no different
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2005, 12:33:12 AM »
salam dear Edip .
the verses you posted have hardly anything to do with RK being the messenger in 3:81 .

also
Ayman , what do u think about my second last post . i m waiting for a response .

salam .
fahad.

Bahman

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« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2005, 08:49:16 PM »
Quote from: "Tay"
Peace Bahman,

Thanks again for your thoughts, but it seems I've failed in properly explaining myself. I'll leave you in peace.

-Tay

Quite welcome and peace.

ayman

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« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2005, 10:50:15 PM »
Peace Fahad,

Quote from: "Saladin"
ok , everything is predestined but the prophets would not have been 'prophets' in their previous existense . why would they have been given the scriptures in previous existence ? also can we prove that Gabriel is the messenger in 3:81 , if we consider the covenant to have been taken in this life ?


The covenant was taken in a previous existence exactly like the covenants in 36:60-61 and 3:187.

As for being given the scriptures in previous existence, although possible, right now I think that the most likely scenario is a two-stage revelation. For example, the great reading was descended in two stages. The first stage is "inzal" in one night per year (laylatu al-qadr/shahr ramadan). The second stage is gradual "tanzil" to the prophet's heart by the spirit (see 26:192-195, 25:32). In this case, the spirit did indeed confirm what the prophet already had.
 
Quote from: "Saladin"
have this possible new understanding after reading Muhammad Asad's translation of 3:81 . its a bit different .
it seems to me that the covenant was made WITH the followers of earlier revelations , the people of the book, THROUGH the prophets , NOT WITH THE PROPHETS .
Muhammad Asad's translation reads :
3: 81
AND, LO, God accepted, through the prophets, this solemn pledge [from the followers of earlier revelation]:* "If, after all the revelation and the wisdom which I have vouchsafed unto you, there comes to you an apostle confirming the truth already in your possession, you must believe in him and succour him. Do you" - said He - "acknowledge and accept My bond on this condition?" They answered: "We do acknowledge it." Said He: "Then bear witness [thereto], and I shall be your witness

read the verses preceding 3:81 . they are about the people of the book . and they are also reminded of their covenant with God and their bearing witness , just like in 3:81. it all makes perfect sense .


I think that the language in 3:81 doesn't allow for that. There are several major linguistic problems with Muhamed Asad's interpretation.

Firstly, the covenant is taken "min"/from the prophets and there is no indication that anyone else was involved. The covenant taken from the people of the book is different. Check it out in 3:187.

Secondly, there is no "if" conditional in the verse. The verse is better translated as follows:

3:81. And when The God took the pledge from the prophets: "For what I have given you from of book and wisdom, then afterwards a messenger came to you confirming what you have, you shall have faith in him and support him", He said: "Do you acknowledge and accept this on you as binding?" They said: "We accepted". He said: "So witness. And I am with you from the witnesses."

It seems that Mohamed Asad was forced to put a conditional because he wanted to restrict his interpretation to those people of the book, which the final prophet came to. The absence of the IF conditional makes it clear that the messenger will come to ALL prophets. If one takes this to be binding on the people of the book, then this means that people of the book throughout history have to believe and support in some future messenger. This creates a physical impossibility that makes the whole interpretation illogical.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

ayman

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« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2005, 10:52:19 PM »
Peace all,

Another key to understanding 3:81 is "will come TO YOU". Notice how Dr. Khalifa took the words "TO YOU" out of his translation 3:81:

003.081
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes TO YOU a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
PICKTHAL: When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come UNTO YOU a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.
SHAKIR: And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an messenger comes TO YOU verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.
KHALIFA: GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."


Dr. Khalifa took out the "TO YOU" because it makes it clear that the prophets will believe in the messenger and support him AFTER he comes to them with confirmation of what they have. Did the prophets Ahmed, Moses, and Jesus get confirmation of their scriptures long after they died through a man who somehow traveled back in time and came to them and told them about a "mathematical miracle" in the great reading?

Dr. Khalifa told a story about traveling to heaven meeting with the prophets, and leading them in the very Sunni ritual prayers. Doesn't Dr. Khalifa's story sound eerily similar to the story of the Hadith of Al-mi'raj where the prophet led the prophets in ritual prayer and went to heaven and met with all the prophets. The similarities in this fairytale are too many so someone must have copied from someone else. Who is more likely to have copied from another? Did the Abbasid era Hadith writers copy from Dr. Khalifa long before he was born or did Dr. Khalifa copy from them?

We know for a fact that this Hadith story was plagiarized from earlier Persian mythology. In turn, it seems that Dr. Khalifa, either consciously or subconsciously plagiarized this story from Hadith. We also know for a fact that Dr. Khalifa wholeheartedly relied on Hadiths when it served his purposes, such as selecting which two verses to reject.

When we look at how Dr. Kahlifa took the expression "to you" out of 3:81 on its own, it may seem like a small oversight. However, from his translation of verses that he doesn't relate to himself or Code 19, it can be seen that Dr. Khalifa was a fairly good translator. He seems to commit major mistranslations mainly in the case of every verse that he relates to himself or to Code 19 and those mistranslations are always targeted towards supporting his claims. Thus, the more one examines Code 19 and Dr. Khalifa's translation one gets the impression of an underlying systematic urge to purposefully promote a preconceived view. This is not the right attitude for anyone, let alone a messenger.

Peace,

Ayman

Fahad

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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2005, 10:01:38 AM »
salam Ayman .
thank u for your detailed reply .

 
Quote
Quote from: "Saladin"
have this possible new understanding after reading Muhammad Asad's translation of 3:81 . its a bit different .
it seems to me that the covenant was made WITH the followers of earlier revelations , the people of the book, THROUGH the prophets , NOT WITH THE PROPHETS .
Muhammad Asad's translation reads :
3: 81
AND, LO, God accepted, through the prophets, this solemn pledge [from the followers of earlier revelation]:* "If, after all the revelation and the wisdom which I have vouchsafed unto you, there comes to you an apostle confirming the truth already in your possession, you must believe in him and succour him. Do you" - said He - "acknowledge and accept My bond on this condition?" They answered: "We do acknowledge it." Said He: "Then bear witness [thereto], and I shall be your witness

read the verses preceding 3:81 . they are about the people of the book . and they are also reminded of their covenant with God and their bearing witness , just like in 3:81. it all makes perfect sense .


I think that the language in 3:81 doesn't allow for that. There are several major linguistic problems with Muhamed Asad's interpretation.

Firstly, the covenant is taken "min"/from the prophets and there is no indication that anyone else was involved.


if we read 3:81 one alone then it does not indicate that anyone else was involved in the covenant other than the prophets. but the overall context indicates that the people of the scripture were also involved , i think .

Quote
Secondly, there is no "if" conditional in the verse. The verse is better translated as follows:


3:81: wa- 'idh 'akhadha 'allaah methaaq an- nabeyen la- maa 'aataytu -kum min kitaab wa- h.ikmah summa jaa'a -kum rasol mus.addiq li- maa
maca -kum la- tu'minunna bi- -hi wa- la- tans.urunna -hu qaala 'a-
aqrartum wa- 'akhadhtum calaa dhaalikum 'is.r -e qaalo aqrarnaa
qaala fa- ishhado wa- 'anaa maca -kum min ash- shaahiden

doesnt the arabic word "summ" mean "if" . i think so . but my arabic is not good . so tell me please .

salam.
fahad.

Wilson

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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2005, 10:20:22 AM »
Peace,

Quote
doesnt the arabic word "summ" mean "if" . i think so . but my arabic is not good . so tell me please .


YUSUFALI: then comes TO YOU a messenger
PICKTHAL: afterward there will come UNTO YOU a messenger
SHAKIR: then a messenger comes TO YOU
KHALIFA: afterwards, a messenger will come


'if' in arabic is IN or LaW.
THuMMa means 'then, afterwards'...


Wilson

albion

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« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2005, 05:37:10 PM »
Quote from: "Mu'min"
.THuMMa means 'then, afterwards'...


Yes Thumma does mean Then/Afterwards

41:9 Say, "You disbelieve in the One who created the earth in two days,

41:11 Then (Thumma) he turned to the heavens (samaa), when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly"

Thank you for pointing out another error in the quran where it says the Universe was created After (Thumma) the Earth



"

jonny_k

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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2005, 08:41:03 AM »
"thumma" is a multiple meaning word. Depending on the context it can mean afterwards, then; simultaneously, moreover
GOD Bless!
[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

Fahad

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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2005, 09:32:47 AM »
salam all .
RK also initially believed that the covenant was with the ppl of the scripture :

from http://www.members.tripod.com/Signs_Magazines/issue3/the_number_nineteen.htm


The two verses of Sura 9, which he has now expunged, were perfectly acceptable to him for many years even after his `heavenly ascension' in 1971, that he included them in his first translation of the Quran.

It appears that only after the consequence of his claim to messengership did all these changes occur. Apart from the numerical code his other proof of his claim is that Sura3.81 refers to him. Compare the two versions below.

1981 Translation: `God has made a covenant with the prophets that He will give them the scripture: then, when a messenger comes to you (O people) confirming the scripture, you shall believe in him and support him. God said. "Do you agree and make a covenant with Me? " (The people) said. "We agree. " God said, "You have borne witness and I hear witness with you" Commentary: This was part of the "pre-creation" pact that God made with all the people (see 7. 172j...

1992 translation: 'GOD took a covenant, from the prophets saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come and confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him " He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree. " He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you" Commentary: This major prophecy has now been fulfilled. God Messenger of the Covenant, as prophesied in this verse and in the Bible...is to purify and unify God's messages which have been delivered by God's prophets'

The difference in the two translations by Rashad shows that he originally believed that this covenant was accepted by the people but the later edition infers that it was accepted by the prophets.

ayman

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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2005, 07:01:30 PM »
Quote from: "idmkhizar"
"thumma" is a multiple meaning word. Depending on the context it can mean afterwards, then; simultaneously, moreover
GOD Bless!


I don't think "thumma" can mean "simultaneously". The problem is that  people such as Albion think in one dimension and imagine the creation to be kind of like a human project as the Bible presents it. Modern scientific theories on the origins of the Universe indicate that all the particles that form matter originated in the big bang. Then space formed through the expansion stage that followed. So all the matter that would end up being "the earth" was created before space. As this matter cooled and the various elements came about, our planet was later formed out of this matter.

If you want to discuss more then this is not a discussion for this thread.

Peace,

Ayman