Now Iran did it!

[lrhazi]

Bottom line is that the muslim system of governance and social order failed

We need a replacement and it is NOT going back to that period but

Bro, Up to there, we agree with you. That is what free-minds is about, amongest other things. You won't find any freemind that will disagree with you on that.
The remaining of your post though.... is blue-pill-istic, if you allow me.

looking forward to a new system called freemarket and freedoom of religion, thought, press, rule of law, etc.

On their own the muslims will NOT invent this system. They need others to show them. Nothing wrong with that. Look at Germany and Japan after USA showed them how it is done even if it means war.

All mankind will indeed, if things go on as planned, be shown the ultimate system, the perfect beautiful social order, the new world order... we are getting there... slowly but surely... Do not worry bro.

The nations that adopted this system have invented (any defention you want ) so many things that is not even close to compare to the muslim inventions. It would be a joke to compare.

If you only knew what it is you are talking about... google for keywords such as globalization and new world order for details.

Do you want to use the same system of the early muslims? If yes, then we disagree completely

No, All the people of this forum, the freeminders, are specifically anti-slafists. Please browse the main website and read a few articles here and there to get an idea about what the general ideas that bring the people on this forum together. If you are after standard Islam, you are in the wrong forum. Standard Islam has nothing to do with "free" nor with "freemind".

Peace,
Mohamed~

[zenje]

Oppy,

Please enlighten me   :wink:

I think Mohamed here answered the question well for me. Another thing, hopefully, after you browse the site... you may realize the difference between sunnis/shias/etc... and muslims. In the same way, what used to be practiced and what's happening right now. :idea:

Peace be with you.

[عوني]

To all

I pray to God that Bush wins and does what I wan't him to do which is liberate all of the Middle East and Iran so maybe in 10-20 years from now they might have a chance to even come close to the rest of the civililzed countries.  Maybe they might even one day invent something the whole world will use and benefit from it.

Arabs/Muslims on their will never revolt to come up with democracy and freedom. They only revolt to bring dictators and military thugs in power and then complain all day about them after words (e.g. Iraq, Libya , Syria, Iran, Pakistan, etc). And do not tell me they were all agents of the CIA put their by the USA to supress arabs/muslims.

I wonder what all of you who do not see the value of the USA liberating Iraq would say about the early muslims invading other regions 1400 years ago. Muslims did it to spread Islam and the word of God to better people's lives and it was called Jihad.

The US is not waging a war to spread relgion but rather a better system of goverance that muslims have not learned on their own in over 1400 years . Muslims did a horrible job of creating a good goverance system. Two of the four Calphates were killed and not all of its citizens were equal under the law that were liberated from China to Spain.

Thank God for the USA

I pray to God that Bush wins and does what I wan't him to do which is liberate all of the Middle East and Iran so maybe in 10-20 years from now they might have a chance to even come close to the rest of the civililzed countries.

Nice try. Bush never liberated and never fixed anything, infact he was a madman. He destroyed Iraq. Today, birth-defects has increased in Iraq, and then you have suicide bombers that occours everyday in Iraq.

Arabs/Muslims on their will never revolt to come up with democracy and freedom. They only revolt to bring dictators and military thugs in power and then complain all day about them after words (e.g. Iraq, Libya , Syria, Iran, Pakistan, etc). And do not tell me they were all agents of the CIA put their by the USA to supress arabs/muslims.

Any ethnic group will revolt and come to democracy. You see, democracy has nothing to do with the West. Democracy comes from the human mind; human nature. Eventually, one will figure it out sooner or later. The problem is that the Arab world isn't being given the same opportunity. Politics in the Middle-East only becomes dirty when Western involvement comes in.

All ethnic groups are unique, and they all have human rights and freedom in common!

I wonder what all of you who do not see the value of the USA liberating Iraq would say

Stop calling it a liberation. Iraq is way off now then it was before.

about the early muslims invading other regions 1400 years ago. Muslims did it to spread Islam and the word of God to better people's lives and it was called Jihad.

Yes, but it was not only Arabs who invaded other regions 1400 years ago - All ethnic groups did this. Your point also consists of failure because you compare Iraq to events that happened 1400 years ago. This is quite ridiculous.

Muslims did it to spread Islam and the word of God to better people's lives and it was called Jihad

Yeah yeah whatever you say. You really need to stop generalising all Muslims.

The US is not waging a war to spread relgion but rather a better system of goverance that muslims have not learned on their own in over 1400 years .

The US enjoys oil. It also enjoys establishing neo-banks in the Arab world. In reality, it does not care about democracy but rather about its economic interests. When the US invaded Iraq, it handed over a message full of requests to Bashar Al-Assad, one of them was to allow the US to establish AMerican neo-banks in Syria. However, Bashar refused them all(Thank God). He also demanded that Iraq be liberated from the US occoupation.

Muslims did a horrible job of creating a good goverance system. Two of the four Calphates were killed and not all of its citizens were equal under the law that were liberated from China to Spain.

You're really too ignorant of history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

Read how they were living their lives great unlike Europe.

In the early centuries of the Islamic Caliphate(Refering to the Islamic golden age), the Islamic law allowed citizens to freely express their views, including criticism of Islam and religious authorities, without fear of persecution. As such, there have been several notable Muslim critics and skeptics of Islam that arose from within the Islamic world itself. In tenth and eleventh-century Syria there lived a blind poet called Al-Ma'arri. He became well known for a poetry that was affected by a "pervasive pessimism."

Scientists within the Islamic civilization were of diverse ethnicities. Most were Persians, Arabs, Moors, Assyrians, and Egyptians. They were also from diverse religious backgrounds. Most were Muslims, but there were also some Christians Jews and irreligious.

Hospitals in this era were the first to require medical diplomas to license doctors. In the medieval Islamic world, hospitals were built in most major cities; in Cairo for example, the Qalawun hospital had a staff that included physicians, pharmacists, and nurses.
Medical facilities traditionally closed each night, but by the 10th century laws were passed to keep hospitals open 24 hours a day and hospitals were forbidden to turn away patients who were unable to pay. Eventually, charitable foundations called waqfs were formed to support hospitals, as well as schools. This money supported free medical care for all citizens.
The first institutions for the care of mentally ill people were also established.


The caliphate often exercised a great degree of religious tolerance towards non-Ismaili sects of Islam as well as towards Jews, Maltese Christians, and Coptic Christians. The courts in Fatimid areas used Hanafi scholars and the population was predominantly Sunni.
Under the Fatimids, Egypt became the center of an empire that included at its peak North Africa, Sicily, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, the Red Sea coast of Africa, Tihamah, Hejaz, and Yemen. Egypt flourished, and the Fatimids developed an extensive trade network in both the Mediterranean and the Indian Ocean. Their trade and diplomatic ties extended all the way to China and its Song Dynasty, which eventually determined the economic course of Egypt during the High Middle Ages.

Unlike other governments in the area, Fatimid advancement in state offices was based more on merit than on heredity. Members of other branches of Islam, like the Sunnis, were just as likely to be appointed to government posts as Shiites. Tolerance was extended to non-Muslims such as Christians, and Jews, who occupied high levels in government based on ability, and tolerance was set into place to ensure the flow of money from all those who were non-Muslims too in order to finance the Fatimids Caliphs' large army of Mamluks brought in from Circassia by Genoese merchants.


With a new, easier writing system and the introduction of paper, information was democratized to the extent that, probably for the first time in history, it became possible to make living from simply writing and selling books. The use of paper spread from China into Muslim regions in the eighth century CE, arriving in Spain (and then the rest of Europe) in the 10th century CE. It was easier to manufacture than parchment, less likely to crack than papyrus, and could absorb ink, making it difficult to erase and ideal for keeping records. Islamic paper makers devised assembly-line methods of hand-copying manuscripts to turn out editions far larger than any available in Europe for centuries. It was from Islam that the rest of the world learned to make paper from linen.
The government heavily patronized scholars. The money spent on the Translation Movement for some translations is estimated to be equivalent to about twice the annual research budget of the United Kingdom's Medical Research Council.


Whilst the pre-modern period lacked a formal feminist movement during the Islamic golden age, nevertheless a number of important figures argued for improving women's rights and autonomy. These range from the medieval mystic and philosopher Ibn Arabi, who argued that women could achieve spiritual stations as equally high as men to Nana Asma?u, daughter of eighteenth-century reformer Usman Dan Fodio, who pushed for literacy and the education of Muslim women.


"Women played an important role in the foundations of many Islamic educational institutions: note for example Fatima al-Fihri's founding of the University of Al Karaouine in 859 CE. This continued through to the Ayyubid dynasty in the 12th and 13th centuries, when 160 mosques and madrasahs were established in Damascus, 26 of which were funded by women through the Waqf (charitable trust or trust law) system. Half of all the royal patrons for these institutions were also women."


There is a lot more on that source I linked.

[Maha]

a3yony

In the early centuries of the Islamic Caliphate(Refering to the Islamic golden age), the Islamic law allowed citizens to freely express their views, including criticism of Islam and religious authorities, without fear of persecution. As such, there have been several notable Muslim critics and skeptics of Islam that arose from within the Islamic world itself. In tenth and eleventh-century Syria there lived a blind poet called Al-Ma'arri. He became well known for a poetry that was affected by a "pervasive pessimism."

the quote is misleading. In fact during the caliphate leaving islam was punished by death, and only sunni men could marry sunni women etc. There was no freedom whatsoever. The socalled golden age is an exagarattion, people were still using donkeys and camels as transportation and they were stoning women to death.. And dont forget, during the socalled islamic golden age quran-aloners were executed for being ''apostates''. In every case, the criminals socalled golden age has been over since centuries now, and today almost every islamic country is good for nothing including Dubai where migrant workers including the muslim migrants are treated as slaves.

How many ''muslims'' have won the nobel prize? 

When I say ''muslims'' i mean hadithers aka mainstream muslims. They and their religion is good for nothing as they are doing shirk, something Quran has clearly warned us against.

You also seems confused. Before you praised Bashar Ass-ad for making Syria secular, and now you finally preach the wonderfulness of an islamic state. So would you please clearify, do you want an islamic state or do you want a secular state?

Peace

[عوني]

a3yony

the quote is misleading. In fact during the caliphate leaving islam was punished by death, and only sunni men could marry sunni women etc. There was no freedom whatsoever. The socalled golden age is an exagarattion, people were still using donkeys and camels as transportation and they were stoning women to death.. And dont forget, during the socalled islamic golden age quran-aloners were executed for being ''apostates''. In every case, the criminals socalled golden age has been over since centuries now, and today almost every islamic country is good for nothing including Dubai where migrant workers including the muslim migrants are treated as slaves.

How many ''muslims'' have won the nobel prize? 

When I say ''muslims'' i mean hadithers aka mainstream muslims. They and their religion is good for nothing as they are doing shirk, something Quran has clearly warned us against.

You also seems confused. Before you praised Bashar Ass-ad for making Syria secular, and now you finally preach the wonderfulness of an islamic state. So would you please clearify, do you want an islamic state or do you want a secular state?

Peace

a3yony

ayony

the quote is misleading. In fact during the caliphate leaving islam was punished by death, and only sunni men could marry sunni women etc.

Someone is jelous. Anyway, woman still had more right than in Europe. Whilst the Islamic golden age period lacked a formal feminist movement, nevertheless a number of important figures argued for improving women's rights and autonomy. These range from the medieval mystic and philosopher Ibn Arabi, who argued that women could achieve spiritual stations as equally high as men to Nana Asma?u, daughter of eighteenth-century reformer Usman Dan Fodio, who pushed for literacy and the education of Muslim women.


"Women played an important role in the foundations of many Islamic educational institutions: note for example Fatima al-Fihri's founding of the University of Al Karaouine in 859 CE. This continued through to the Ayyubid dynasty in the 12th and 13th centuries, when 160 mosques and madrasahs were established in Damascus, 26 of which were funded by women through the Waqf (charitable trust or trust law) system. Half of all the royal patrons for these institutions were also women."


Yes the leaving religion punishment thingy is stupid and very ridiculous, I agree. I wish they have gotten rid of that, infact why not just get rid of the entire theocratic state?

The socalled golden age is an exagarattion, people were still using donkeys and camels as transportation..

You're right, they're suppose to use cars in the 8th century! Since cars existed during that time

And dont forget, during the socalled islamic golden age quran-aloners were executed for being ''apostates''.

Where did you read that? Please provide some epic evidence.

Some Quranists have suggested that the original prohibition against Hadith led to the Golden Age of Islam, as the Quran was able to stand up to critical thinking and questioning; and Muslims were thus schooled to be inquisitive and seek answers to every quandary. They posit that the increased reliance on Hadith, which was allegedly illogical and required the suspension of disbelief, led to the eventual downfall of scholastic pursuits in the religion.

In every case, the criminals socalled golden age has been over since centuries now, and today almost every islamic country is good for nothing including Dubai where migrant workers including the muslim migrants are treated as slaves.

Are you saying that the Islamic golden age was a joke? Do you know what they managed to invent/develop compared to Europe that contributed nothing to society during that time whatsoever?


First of all there's no "Islamic country", there's only the Arab world. And as for things happening in these countries, it's because of shitty theocracy that takes over which prevents education from developing! I personally would love to kick all religions out of politics.

I don't agree with the Arabs who use migrants as slaves.. I condemn that. In reality, they are no better than those Europeans who used to slave and kill people over race.


Wahabbism needs to be kicked out of the Middle-east.

How many ''muslims'' have won the nobel prize?

LOL. The nobel-prize thingy was established by the Swedish Alfred Nobel in 1895 which was long after the Islamic golden age. But if you're question is about today, then that has to do with the lack of education running in Arab countries. Theocracy which is destroying these countries by shutting down citizens from getting an education. I don't see how Quranism, Sunnism, or anything can destroy or increase your development of science, unless you keep yourself away from science for the sake of it.

You also seems confused. Before you praised Bashar Ass-ad for making Syria secular, and now you finally preach the wonderfulness of an islamic state.

No, I never praised Bashar, I praised SECULARISM.

Anyway I don't think it should be called an "Islamic" state though, as they allowed much which probaly contradicted their faith.. For example criticism, or am I wrong?


But you're trying to point fingers at the Islamic golden age, yet it did a lot of good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventions_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

Although I do agree it was not perfect because of some things such as the laws you just presented. I believe they were going to abandon it sooner or later. The fact that they allowed criticism against their religion, the fact that they allowed Non-Muslims to join and contribute to science as much as them and not to mention the great religious tolerance - that's what made it sucessful. They kept going forward, and at the end I'm sure they'd have removed the theocratic state. Keep in mind that this was all because of education.

So would you please clearify, do you want an islamic state or do you want a secular state?

I want a state based on a unitary parliamentary representative democracy under constitutional monarchy.


Shariah should go back to Europe(Except for Sweden).



I'm a secular Muslim.

[es]

You two so love each other.   

Please just get married  and invite us all to the wedding! 

[diamantinehoneybunch]

You two so love each other.   

Please just get married  and invite us all to the wedding! 

How dare you said that!
You make me feel jealous. 
Awni is 19 and I am 17. Maha is much older.

P/S : Just for laugh

[BornAgain]

In fact during the caliphate leaving islam was punished by death, and only sunni men could marry sunni women etc. There was no freedom whatsoever. The socalled golden age is an exagarattion, people were still using donkeys and camels as transportation and they were stoning women to death.. And dont forget, during the socalled islamic golden age quran-aloners were executed for being ''apostates''

Please provide sources to back up your statement. No, don't use hadits.

How many ''muslims'' have won the nobel prize? 

Just from the top of my head:

- Anwar Al-Sadar
- Muhammad Yunus
- Yasser Arafat
- Shirin Ebadi
- Tawakal Karmen

And I'm sure there is more.

Who cares about Nobel Prize anyway, everything is political. Barak Obama was awarded Nobel "peace" Price and he has been bombing the crap out of many Muslim countries. Oh wait, I suppose you may support his action because well, all these Muslims are backward and terrorists.

[Earthdom]

Please provide sources to back up your statement. No, don't use hadits.

Just from the top of my head:

- Anwar Al-Sadar
- Muhammad Yunus
- Yasser Arafat
- Shirin Ebadi
- Tawakal Karmen

And I'm sure there is more.

Who cares about Nobel Prize anyway, everything is political. Barak Obama was awarded Nobel "peace" Price and he has been bombing the crap out of many Muslim countries. Oh wait, I suppose you may support his action because well, all these Muslims are backward and terrorists.

Yes especially Yasser Arafat.Himself even have "enemy" inside State of Palestina, and if I'm not wrong Yasser Arrafat always carry a pistol for some concern if there is an assasination attemp.

Nowdays politic is very shit, even some leftist political party in the name of religion actually just a name, and even also the purpose of creation and the meaning of "country" already distorted by bad politicians.
Our country "Indonesia" is ruled and runned by "strange" people and most of our people now don't care about flag anymore, they only care about  economic and football.As Indonesian you may realize it too.

Oh ya apa kamu ini @Moonlight di Forum Allah Semata?? Soalnya wajah kalian berdua mirip banget hehehe .

Peace

[BornAgain]

Oh ya apa kamu ini @Moonlight di Forum Allah Semata?? Soalnya wajah kalian berdua mirip banget hehehe .

The Moonlight chick wears a pink scarf, and I, a white one. Surely we can't be the same person