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[The nature of Christ]

Peace to all bros n sisters,

As part of the Christmas season, here's something that I wanted to bring out: The nature of Christ

I have always been perturbed as to the nature of Christ. Not because I am influenced by the Trinitarian concept of Christians, but because of the truths revealed by the Holy Quran that we are expected to believe:

1) Why did God provide the Only virgin birth in the history of mankind to Christ? No human being has been born in such a way and there is no reason at all for this to happen. What was the need for this miracle? Why are believers supposed to suspend logic? The believer will reason that it was a proof of his messengership, proving that God can do anything. But being born of a virgin can never stand the test of proof and will only be ridiculed by disbelievers as the fairy tales of an immoral woman and her son. So what did God achieve with this unnatural birth?

2) Why does God inform us that the likeness of Christ is the same as that of Adam? As proof of their similarity, even the 25 number of times both are mentioned is exactly the same!

3) Why did God raise Christ back to heaven? Every human being dies and becomes dust. Why not Christ? What was special about him that his body had to be raised?

4) Why was Christ able to do miracles that were much greater than any other Prophet? He spoke from the cradle, breath life into birds made of clay and even raised dead people!


Thus the following facts come into picture:
1) If Christ was born of a virgin, it shows that his nature "requires" that he not be born of the seed of man.
2) If Christ is like Adam, he too would have to be created in Paradise, before being born on Earth, similar to Adam with neither father nor mother. We know Adam was sent to Earth from Paradise.
3) If Christ was raised back to heaven, it shows that he would not be judged on the Judgement Day.
4) If Christ spoke from the cradle, it shows that age was not of concern for his learning and wisdom. He already had the wisdom required about God and his own mission on Earth.

These facts lead us to conclude that Christ could not have been a mere human whose life began 2000 years back, but was a being created in Paradise just as Adam was created by God Almighty. Similar conclusions have been reached by some Christian groups such as Jehovah's Witness (who do not support the trinitarian view) too. They all point to him being Michael, the Archangel.

Proofs?
Many of you may not believe in the Bible itself, but there are verses in the Bible where Christ quotes:
1) that he lived much before Abraham (the very reason for the false conclusion by Christians that he is god incarnate)
2) that he will send another who is similar to him after he is gone (he sent Gabriel with the Quran to Muhammad)



Bible also says
1) Christ is a begotten son of God (not to be understood in the blasphemous way the Christians understand it.. but the meaning makes sense if you consider that Adam too was begotten (initiated). Both Michael and Adam were directly created by God Himself. Thus both can be said to be first 'sons' of God, before we began life as sons too.)
2) Baptise in the name of God, Christ and Spirit (we see a similar verse in the Quran itself!)

Don't believe? Define the meaning of this verse:

Anyone who opposes God, and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael, should know that God opposes the disbelievers.
(Holy Quran- 2:98)

Why does God seperate Gabriel and Michael from other angels? Why are they specificaly mentioned? Ever wondered?
Answer - Because they are not like other angels but of different nature.
Gabriel is the Holy Spirit (26:193) through whom all life is created.
Michael is the Archangel who fights the forces of Satan.



Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

In the end, our worship is to GOD Almighty Alone. The Creator and Master of All. None is worthy of worship except Him.

[?The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.?]

Hello all,

This is my first post here. Introducing myself, I am a "Christian Tauhid", and interested in your forum. A quick response re the discussion concerning Noah's age...... I believe an interpretation of the Qur'an needs to be done in unity with all the Holy Books. Those passing information down for thousands of years believed that Noah was nearly 1000 years old. For a Muslim to say that the Qur'an intended  something totally different is going to cause all sorts of problems. You can't create the message of the Qur'an in opposition to previous revelation.

Just another point of clarification on this thread, Paul was definitely NOT a Trinitarian. That theology evolved over centuries long after the life of Paul.

Wasalam
Zack

Salaam Zack
Welcome to the forum. Good to hear your views. On the contrary, while Paul may not have directly subscribed to a trinitarian god, the way he proclaimed worship left no other choice for the believers. Paul, writing to believers, encouraged them to worship in a Trinity in 2 Corinthians 13:14:
?The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.?

Isn't this the basis of today's idol worship ?

Thank you for the thoughts..

But the question still lies unanswered... how could Noah have lived for 950 years.. it's almost as if he were immortal, living for a millennium.

I wonder if "thousand minus fifty" can be deduced to mean something else.... 

Peace.

The Quran teaches that there are people who have access to what can happen in the future. The story of Joseph interpreting dreams and predicting to the Egyptian Pharoah the famine that would happen after many years, is one such example.

The best example is that of Al-Khidr and his teachings to Moses (18:65). In every instance this mystic conducted actions that was against Moses sense of reasoning and yet he showed the need for his actions by predicting the future.

Thus if there existed other Prophets who knew the future, it would not be far-fetched to accept that the Prophet Muhammad too knew the future. That would also explain the reason why he never bothered to ever name a successor to lead the Ummah after his death, for he would have already known that the future of the Muslims would be inevitably divisions into sunni, shia etc. and hatred for each other's community. On the day of Judgement, the Prophet also knew that he would stand as witness against Muslims that they rejected the Quran.

Looks to me, he clearly knew what he was talking about.

The big flood must have changed and affected so much on the earth that it causes things to change including perhaps the average life span of the people.

In any case, if your criteria to believe in Quran is based only on your logic and confirmation of every verse as per your intelligence level, there where is the Faith? the faith is to believe in every word of Quran and then try to understand what you can and what you can not, pray to Lord to grant you wisdom to understand it one day.
This is the belief in unseen i guess... that I believe in quran is from my Lord and my Lord never lies.

Cheers

Salaam Fusion,
Thank you for the reply. You seriously believe the Old Testament narration of the great flood, that Noah carried a pair of all types creatures that existed--millions upon the millions of different creatures that we find on Earth? No wonder the atheists are enjoying themselves making fun of religious people! Our beliefs make no sense then.

The Quran does not explain such fiction but only teaches that the people of Noah were destroyed by the flood for their sins. Thus it makes sense to believe that the flood was limited to the area of the red sea and did not affect the rest of the globe. The animals that Noah carried on his boat were his own sheep so as to stay alive during the time of the flood. If all of mankind had died during the flood, naturally we wouldn't see Chinese, Africans, Caucasians and Asians all so different from one another evolving over night.




With regards to the criteria to believe in the Quran, yes, I would absolutely wish to see rationality in the book of God because He is the One who created this universe based on logical laws of physics and science that He designed. Anything that we claim as a 'miracle' is just what has not yet been analyzed and explained by someone. Thus man walking on the moon might sound like a miracle until somebody explains the background procedure that went with it.

The only way an average human being can differentiate between falsehood and the truth, between all the millions of gods of various religions that existed over millennia is by seeking logical facts. I hope you agree.

Peace.

Salaam brother,

You quoted on the end of your post verse 2:2, I think that is the answer to your question.
Do you think you are from "al-muttaqeen"? If yes, then use the book as al-muttaqeen use it.
If no, then try to become one 
Seriously this is the only way to acces the treasures of the book.
What you descibe above are explanations from people who are not from al-muttaqeen, they only guess and take the wrong explanation.



RED: In a "Muslim" world there is no hatred, suffering and chaos.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

See my answer to the first part.
RED: We have to be very very veeeeery sure before we say something in the name of Allah.
Do you really think Allah allows this kind of immorality?
Allah forbids EVERY immorality, visible or hidden. It is really important to understand this.
People have written libraries  to justify polygamy but in the end it is still immorality, there is no justification for immorality.

4:3 is not about polygamy 

Sorry if my answers sound like dictating. Anyway I hope my answers will help you a bit.
thank you

Salaam,
Bender

Salaam Bender,
Thanks for the reply. Good thoughts. But just to point out to you a simple fact... just as you consider yourself as being 'al-muttaqeen' by blindly following the Quran, there are billions of other people blindly following their own scriptures (filled with half-truths and whole lies)... On what basis does one ascertain which book is the truth? Why would you reject the Old Testament and not the Quran? What is your criteria? The simple rule would be to follow the scripture that does not have any illogical nonsensical ideas in it and at the same time guides the follower towards the true Creator of the Universe. Any scripture that accepts evil or idolization of helpless human beings or teaches materialism or irrational thoughts would not fit the criteria.

As far as I am concerned, there is no historical book that reveals the truth better than the Quran. But there are still some verses that need clarification. Instead of just giving up the realities of the universe and not questioning, I would be at peace if these points were clearer.

Thank you for your time. Peace.

[[29:14] We sent Noah to his people, and he stayed with them one thousand years, less fifty.]

Salaam brothers n sisters,

I was just reading Sura 29 and found this verse that clearly states the age of Noah...

[29:14] We sent Noah to his people, and he stayed with them one thousand years, less fifty.

so difficult to use logic here.. does everyone actually accept the age of Noah as 950 years? Why blame Christians about the Bible having errors, when our Quran makes the same wild claims!

I was wondering if there is a possibility that the calendar year those days was different and thus 95 years lifespan of our time was considered as 950 years then? I mean... sheesh, there must be some way this verse can make sense without having to accept the obvious!

I'm prepared to believe any possible suggestions as long as you wouldn't say that a man lived from the beginning to the end of a millennium. I mean, just living 50 years in today's high-speed lifestyle is enough to make humans tired of life... what would a man living in a farming community do for a thousand years? Did God change our genetics a few generations ago? A piece of the puzzle is clearly missing here.

As of now I'm prepared to believe the Ahmadiyya understanding, which says that the period described in the Quran is the age of Noah's dispensation, extending until the time of Abraham (950 years). The first 50 years were the years of spiritual progress, which were followed by 900 years of spiritual deterioration of Noah's people.

Thanks.
Peace.

[Maybe the rest of the world has benefited from our ignorant, less educated societies.]

Peace,

I know that God is in control of all things and has wisdom far, far, far, beyond human understanding, so while
we give anecdotes as to why we Muslims are in the condition we are in, let us not forget our reality is part of God's
plan.  What I mean by this is that maybe the rest of the world is better off because of our current malaise.  Imagine
if we in our current mindset possessed nuclear capabilities besides the Pakistanis!  Maybe the rest of the world
has benefited from our ignorant, less educated societies.

God bless

   

Good point Hawk.. Never thought about it... Certainly the peace and development of the modern world is much safer today with our Muslim brothers fighting each other, instead of focusing all their hatred and energies on the rest of the world...

But on the other hand, with ignorance comes the devil... with knowledge- our people might still be leading the world forward as we did during the dark ages. Only wisdom and understanding can remove people's hatred for each other... when mass-delusion is the order of the day, what hope have we?

Greetings of Peace!

Nice to see your insightful replies. Glad to read all the varied responses.

Just to clarify my point, I am not praising the west, nor doubting the glorious message of the Holy Qur'an. I have only voiced my concern that though we have the perfect unedited message safe with us for the past millennium, our people have yet to come out of their closed mind-sets. Those amongst us who can, prefer to escape to the west and settle there. This is a fact, whether we like it or not.

One longs to see the tide turn some day, when the edisons and the einsteins, the david humes and the da vincis, the steve jobs and the stephen hawkins rise from the Muslim world. We still look back at the golden age of the Islamic civilization centuries back and for some reason find it difficult to get back on our feet today. It is not just the west, various other societies have grown at rapid pace too. The Japanese, Koreans and Chinese are marching forward with development at break-neck speed, none of whom are Islamic societies. The recent record set by a chinese company named 'Alibaba' as the world's largest IPO ever, is certainly an irony.

Perhaps we can summarise our passiveness in the growth of today's world as being the effect of becoming a community having no interest in the material goals and pleasures of this world. Perhaps our focus being only on the next life, we are unable to push our creative energies in any other direction. In the end, none of the bill gates and new technologies matter, because everything in life is just vanity right?

[In conclusion, the caretakers of the message of the Holy Quran are yet to follow it, while the idol-worshippers who have access to bits and fragments of the Messiah's Gospel, are following the message much better!]

Salaam,

Many thanks to Wakas, Jaafar and Good logic for taking the time to put across your views. I understand the points you are making and agree with you. Yet it saddens me that the state of Islamic affairs and its image across the world is only going downhill every generation ahead. The world is going to be more harsh to Muslims in the years to come...

In conclusion, the caretakers of the message of the Holy Quran are yet to follow it, while the idol-worshippers who have access to bits and fragments of the Messiah's Gospel, are following the message much better!

Looks like apostle Paul did a better job professing Trinity alone than prophet Muhammed did with Allah alone?