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Messages - ade_cool

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Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / Re: Salat in Hadith
« on: July 13, 2007, 07:45:59 PM »
Oh also, does anyone know if sunnis and shias pray in the same way or not?
Sunnis and shias don't pray the same way. When shias pray, they don't cross their hand on their chest while sunnis do.

Interestingly, both sunnis and shias claim that their prayer is the same as that of the prophet. Whose claim is correct???

Another difference is shias pray using turba.

Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / Re: Salat in Hadith
« on: July 13, 2007, 07:17:54 PM »
Shahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 21, Number 230:

    Narrated Al-Mughira:

    The Prophet used to stand (in the prayer) or pray till both his feet or legs swelled. He was asked why (he offered such an unbearable prayer) and he said, "should I not be a thankful slave."

That is how the prophet allegedly prayed but as we all can witness, sunnis and shias don't pray that way.

Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / Re: Salat in Hadith
« on: July 12, 2007, 08:44:07 PM »
Shahih Sunan Abu Dawud Book 3, Number 0921:

    Narrated AbuHurayrah:

    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Kill the two black things during prayer, the snake and scorpion.

From the hadith above, we are supposed to kill snake and scorpions during prayer. This is how we are supposed to perform during prayer according to hadith books  ;D

Sunni/Shia Religion / Attempt to inject Asr prayer???
« on: July 12, 2007, 08:34:33 PM »
Shahih Muslim Book 004, Number 1317:

    Al-Bara' b. 'Azib reported: This verse was revealed (in this way):" Guard the prayers and the 'Asr prayer." We recited it (in this very way) so long as Allah desired. Allah, then, abrogated it and it was revealed:" Guard the prayers, and the middle prayer." A person who was sitting with Shaqiq (one of the narrators in the chain of transmitters) said: Now it implies the 'Asr prayer. Upon this al-Bara' said: I have already informed you how this (verse) was revealed and how Allah abrogated it, and Allah knows best. Imam Muslim said: Ashja'i narrated it from Sufyan al-Thauri, who narrated it from al-Aswad b. Qais, who narrated it from 'Uqba, who narrated it from al-Bara' b. 'Azib who said: We recited with the Prophet (may peace be upon him) (the above-mentioned verse like this, i. e. instead of Salat al- Wusta, Salat al-'Asr) for a certain period. as It has been mentioned (in the above-quoted hadith).

According to the above mentioned hadith in Shahih Muslim, Quran verse 2:238 was previously "Guard the prayers and the Asr prayer". Is it coincidence that nowadays, sunni believes "salat alwustaa" in 2:238 refers to Asr prayer? For me, that hadith is more like an attempt to inject Asr prayer.

What do you think guys?

Introduce Yourself / Re: christians and shias lead me to God Alone
« on: July 02, 2007, 06:05:19 AM »
Peace jankren,
Hmm, somehow I knew that Ade was 'one of us'. ;D ;D ;D
This is called "pattern recognition" or maybe "merah putih bond"  ;D

Introduce Yourself / Re: christians and shias lead me to God Alone
« on: July 02, 2007, 06:00:32 AM »
Salam bro Andya,
salam, bung Ade_cool.  Akhirnya ikut nimbrung di sini juga yah?  Selamat bergabung.

Hehehe, iya akhirnya ikutan nimbrung juga di sini   :D

Thanks ya "met bergabung"nya  :sun:

Introduce Yourself / Re: christians and shias lead me to God Alone
« on: July 02, 2007, 05:58:23 AM »
Peace David_K, Layth,

Thanks for the warm welcome ...Actually I could have written longer, but I guess short version of my story is more readable :)

Introduce Yourself / Re: christians and shias lead me to God Alone
« on: July 02, 2007, 05:51:44 AM »
Peace OPF,


Your story is eerily like mine. I went from Sunni-ism to being practically agnostic, but then I picked up a book on Shia thought, and looked further as you did (faced with exactly the same contradiction that you found!), then looked on, and just like you, the stoning hadith sealed it for me :)

Eerie similarity.

Nice to hear that somebody has similar experiences  :)

Introduce Yourself / christians and shias lead me to God Alone
« on: June 30, 2007, 10:10:29 AM »
Salam all brothers and sisters,

I have been lurker here for quite some time and today I decide to register and share my story how I came to God Alone.

I was born in sunni family. Previously I was just following whatever taught to me. I didn't even know that we have so many sects such as Shia, Sunni, Ahmadiyya, Ismailiya, Ibadhi, etc. My journey to God Alone started when I felt very confident in my belief. You know what, in the past I took hadith books as divine revelations and I was very very confident with that belief.

I started debating christians. What I knew was Bible contains LIES ONLY while Quran and hadith books contain TRUTH ONLY. My reasoning is simple, if I can show those christians that their Bible is not authentic (neither from God nor from Jesus), then they cannot claim their religion is from God. I started reading Bible and of course it was not difficult to find contradictions and alterations. Surprise for me, showing those contradictions and alterations is not enough to make them even think. My next step is to show them that their belief contradicts Bible. My reasoning is also very simple, since those christians believe in Bible, if I can show their belief contradicts Bible, they should follow what is in Bible. Again their reaction surprised me. For example, I showed those christians that Jesus is God's messenger using the verse below:

JN 5:30 I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

They reject the verse blatantly. They twist the interpretation to fit what have been taught to them, namely Jesus is God. Their reaction makes me think: Is my belief already in agreement with quran and hadith? My answer was yes because I was very confident in my belief (later I know it was merely due to my unawareness of the true contents of quran).

Still feeling very very confident with my belief, I started studying shia (honestly that was the first time I know that my belief is labelled sunni). After studying shia for some time, I came to know that Shahih Bukhari Muslim can still be questioned. For example, the hadith regarding Moses slapping the angel of death, I knew this the first time when studying shia. For me that was small errors (maybe because I was still very confident in hadiths). Studying shia further I came to know regarding divine appoinment of imam Ali. Knowing that, I feel that sunni scholars are not honest. They conceal this truth. They never tell that imam Ali was divinely appointed. They never quote that hadith!

I had sympathy for shia and I wanted to accept the shia concept of imamah but one question remains: if Abu Bakr rejected the divine appoinment of imam Ali, he must have rejected the messenger, and if Abu Bakr was kafir (rejecting messenger), then why we have hadiths mentioning the virtues of Abu Bakr? Those contradictory informations can be found in the very same hadith books, so which one should I follow, both have label Shahih attached to them? The thing is I cannot believe those contradictory hadiths at the same time. If I choose to believe in divine appointment of imam Ali, I have to believe Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman were all kafir. On the other hand, if I choose to believe that Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman are true shahaba, it is possible that I reject messenger. I was unable to reconcile this, I was in the middle of shia and sunni so to say. Then I prayed to God to guide me to the straight path. Every day I prayed.

God answered my prayer. I forgot how, but I came accross discussion regarding stoning. Some argue that stoning is part of islamic law while some argue that stoning contradicts quran. I took me very very long time to accept that stoning contradicts quran. Why did it take very very long? Simply because it has been believed to be so, which means if I reject this today, I reject what "Muslims" have been believing in the last 1000 years. This is no longer small errors like Moses slapping the angel of death. This is an extremely serious error. Even more serious is this hadith:

Shahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:

    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

    'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."
For me, this hadith means like this:
(1) Two centuries after the demise of the prophet, Bukhari collected reports regarding the prophet
(2) From (1) it goes without saying that when Bukhari was not born yet, quran was already compiled long long time ago.
(3) From (1) and (2) it goes without saying that when Bukhari was collecting those reports, he had quran in his hand.
(4) From (3), whatever collected by Bukhari, whatever science of hadith he developed, doesn't affect the authenticity of quran at all.
(5) When Bukhari gave the label shahih to the above mentioned report, for me it simply means Bukhari rejected quran. Bukhari had quran in his hand compiled before he was born, so how could he agree with his own science of hadith that the quran in his hand is not authentic and has missing verses? I imagine when I were living in the era of Bukhari and I heard that quran in my hand has missing verses. Of course if I believe in quran, I will surely reject those reports. Only those who disbelieve in quran will even think to accept such reports. YET, Bukhari gave the label shahih. Bukhari did believe quran in his hand is not authentic and has missing verses!

If Bukhari, the author of Shahih Bukhari, rejected quran, rejected the authenticity of quran, then how can I take his book as the second volume of quran? There is of course another possibility that Shahih Bukhari we have nowadays is not what Bukhari wrote, the thing is I cannot believe Shahih Bukhari is authentic and reliable and at the same time believe Bukhari was not rejecter of quran.

I then checked whether shia believe in stoning or not. They do (although unlike sunni they don't believe there are missing verses)! At that time I was realizing that I don't have to choose either shia interpretation or sunni interpretation of hadith books. I can reject both interpretations if they are wrong.

I continued praying to God to guide me to straight path. Alhamdulillah, after studying quran, hadith books, and bible carefully, I finally came to God Alone.

3:8 "O our Sustainer! Let not our hearts swerve from the truth after Thou hast guided us; and bestow upon us the gift of Thy grace: verily, Thou art the [true] Giver of Gifts.


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