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General Issues / Questions / Where is Br Kyle Joell?????
« on: December 05, 2003, 04:19:03 AM »
Peace to you all!

I wonder where Brother Kyle Joell is?
I have tried to reach him so many times but he do not respond to mail.
Do someone know how to reach him?

Kyle and I have an yahoo group together named Quranists Online and he is the owner even if I should be it, now I cannot do anything in that group without his help and that disturb me alot.

Many weird people have start to post there and I want to delete those people but that is Kyles job as an owner.

I cannot even delete the group and start over without his help.

Please can someone help me!?

Sister Majidah

Submitters / Code 19 / Re: Is Rashad the Messenger in 3:81?
« on: December 05, 2003, 04:05:02 AM »
Peace Br Layth,

Why don't you reply to Br Bahman?
It would be great to read your reply on that subject.

Peace be upon you

Sister Majidah

Salat & Zakat (The Contact & Purification) / Re: New Salat Article
« on: December 05, 2003, 03:35:43 AM »
Peace Brother Layth,

What first hit me after reading this new salat article was how similiar it was to christianity in some way.

Maybe it was there everything went wrong with torah, injeel and quran, the message was replaced, but Quran was messed through wrong translations and manmade scriptures besides it.

Christians do not have special times for praying everyday and they use to meet in the church during special events like burying the dead or some tragic have happen in the village etc.

All those scriptures came from the ONE and SAME GOD so the messages couldn't be so different from eachother.

And one more thing hit me, that if the free will that God have gave us all humans should be used as it should, then all humans should be judge for what she have done and that lead me to think if God make things obligate to perfom then we will not use our free minds.we are all unique and we are working alone to strive to achieve rewards from God because one day we will stand there alone and face the judgement from God.

But that doesn't mean that we must be alone in our lives we can and should share our ideas and views to our brothers and sisters like we are doing here.

But my point is that the real religious live the spirituality is between me and God.

I think the article is a good work but there are things I found in some way strange. Like you said the time for salat was dedicated to prophet Muhammad and no one else.

But prophet Muhammad is dead but Quran still lives so why could those timings not be guilty for the so called imams who hold those meetings in the temples as an guideline when it is best to gather???

And days there isn't any gathering meetings people could recite Al-Quran during those salat timings you mention fajr and Ishaa at home or other good places.

I do so today,recite Al-Quran during fajr and ishaa and feel comfortable with it.

But what about recite it during some parts of nights? was that also only for the prophet or can we muslims do that too!?

Peace be upon you

Sister Majidah

Quote from: "Layth"
Peace to you all,

The article below will be used to replace what exists on free-minds regarding Salat...May our Lord guide us to what is always better and a clearer path.

* This article has been added to based on discussions on this forum.

Salat in the Quran

??And We have sent down to you the Scripture as a CLARIFICATION for all things, and a guide and mercy and good tidings to those who have surrendered.? (Quran 16:89)

If the Quran is complete, there where can we find the details of Salat?.

This is by far the ?single? most repeated question whenever the discussion arises about upholding the Holy Scripture on its own and disregarding all human fabrications that have been falsely associated with it This paper will attempt to address this simple issue seeking the guidance of God through His Scripture...

What is Salat?.

Listening to the traditionalist?s explanation, we are told that Salat means: ?Prayer? (Du?a), and that God ordered His prophet on the night of ascension to heaven (one must assume that 17:1 is referring to prophet Mohammed and not Moses) to inform his followers to perform this specific ritual 5 times each day. Of course, in the ongoing efforts to praise and exalt the prophet to a godlike status, the traditionalists add spice to the story by informing us that God originally decreed 50 Salat?s per day for the people, but that the trading skills of Arabia came in very handy (with the ever-present advise from Moses who it is said resided in the 7th heaven and is an expert bargainer) to bargain down the number with God from 50 to a mere 5 (who said that God never changes His words!).  

The fault with the above explanation (if we put aside the ridiculousness of the story) is that the meaning ascribed to Salat being: ?prayer? is totally incorrect based on the following verses:

?And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.? (2:186)

?And We have created man and We know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than his jugular vein.? (50:16)

?And when waves surround them like mountains, they call on God, sincerely devoting the system to Him. But when He saves them to the shore, some of them revert. None discard Our signs except those who are betrayers, unappreciative.? (31:32)

?And with Him are the keys to the unseen, none know them except He. And He knows what is in the land and in the sea; and not a leaf falls except with His knowledge; nor a seed in the darkness of the earth; nor anything moist or anything dry; all is in a clear record.? (6:59)

Note that God speaks of His servants ?praying? to Him anytime anyplace. He does not need rest, nor is He unaware of the tiniest events in our lives or on this world?He is God who is with us 24 hours a day and sees all that we declare and all that we conceal?He is not the god of 5 times a day who only listens to His servants at 6:12 am, 12:30 pm, 3:10 pm, 5:15 pm and 7:22pm!.

Additionally, God already uses the word ?prayer? (du?a) in the Quran and thus the claim that Salat is also ?prayer? has no basis linguistically or logically.

Do birds perform Salat?.

?Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the earth glorifies God? Even the birds perched together, each knows its Salat and its glorification. And God is fully aware of everything they do.? (24:41)

According to the Quran, the answer is ?yes?, that birds when perched together (safaat in Arabic) are actually in Salat. Are these birds performing all the rituals of ?ruku/sujood? (bowing/prostration) that people would like us to believe are the meaning of Salat?. Or is it their act of coming together that is being called a Salat?.

Did Shu?ayb receive his instructions through a ?ritual prayer? or was it something else?.

?They said: ?O Shu?ayb, does your Salat order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? You are the compassionate, the sane!? (11:87)

The people of Shu?ayb accused him of receiving instructions from his ?Salat? which were meant for the people to change their way of life?Did Shu?ayb go to pray and then came and told his people how they should live?. Or did he carry out a deeper act which granted him an analysis of how his people have been living and where they were violating God?s decree?.

The word ?Salat? is a ?Linking? (Arabic: Silla) of people together. That is the linguistic and practical meaning of the word?Not a ?prayer? or ?rituals? or any complex combination, but simply a coming together of people (or even non-humans as in the example of the birds) is called ?Salat?.

Salat = *Assembly

*Dictionary meaning for Assembly: ?meeting, congregation, congress, council, legislative body?.

Why would people come together for Salat?.

In the Quran, we find that the times people are coming together for Salat are typically ?incident related? and thus designed to produce a solution to a problem:

-   Death (5:106)
-   War (4:101-102)
-   Treason (9-1-5)
Thus when a man is dead and there is a dispute over how to handle his will, a Salat is called to resolve the issue using God?s book?Or when war is being fought, the believers would call for a ?Salat? to understand the laws of conduct and how to deal with their enemy?Or when an act of treason is discovered, then the Salat is used to pass judgment on the accused parties?

Overall, the ?Salat? is called to for any situation where the ?remembrance of God? is required

?I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and hold the Salat for My remembrance.?  (20:14)

The Rules of Salat:

When people call for the ?Salat? (not just a normal meeting or gathering) then the objective has already been defined that it will be a meeting relating to God and His Scripture.

1. The Call.

?O you who believe, if the Salat is called to at a time of gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew.? (62:9)

The ?Salat? is given precedence by the believers in ceasing all activities if the call is made for such a special gathering?It must be noted that the call to ?Salat? is incumbent on both the believing men & women JOINTLY (3:37-39) and is not a pure male or pure female gathering as the traditionalists try to promote.

2. Location.

Since the ?Salat? is being called to in public, then there should be specific buildings/structures where such a gathering is conducted...

?Say: ?My Lord orders justice, and that you be devoted at every Temple (Masjid), and that you call on Him, while being faithful to Him in the system; as He initiated you, so you will return.? (7:29)
?And the Temples (Masajid) are for God, so do not call on anyone with God. And when God?s servant stood up to call on Him, they nearly banded to oppose him. Say: ?I only call on my Lord, and I do not associate anyone with Him.? (72:18-20)

3. Preparation.

As we have grown accustomed to, the Quran highlights details for ?etiquette? in our lives ranging from returning a greeting (4:86) to keeping one?s voice humble (31:19)?It is no different when we come to ?Salat? that we find certain rules to be observed:

a. Hygiene

?O you who believe, if you rise to attend the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe you heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are filthy, then become clean; and if you are ill or traveling or you have excreted, or you have sexually touched the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.? (5:6)

b. Dress Nicely

?O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every Temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.? (7:31)

c. Do not attend if you are intoxicated or unable to focus.

?O you who believe, do not come near the Salat while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor dirty, except for travellers, until you wash. And if you are ill or traveling or one of you has excretion or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water: then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.? (4:43)

d. Use a ?moderate tone? throughout.

As we have pointed out, God does not like those who make their voices loud & harsh (31:19)?Thus the attendees of the Salat are to uphold a civilized and constructive gathering rather that one of noise and rabble:

?Say: ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in your Salat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.? (17:110)

e. Words that must be said.

Though the objective and method for Salat are covered in detail below, it is important to highlight 17:111 which gives us ?specific? words that must be uttered when the Salat is being held:

?And say: ?Praise be to God who Has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.? (17:111)

The above saying refutes the false claims that are being made to this day by the various groups:

-   That God has a son (Christians);
-   That God has a partner (Sunni & Shite Muslims);
-   That God is weak (Jews).

4. The Method.

Now that we have all gathered inside the Temple for the call, it is time to look at the Quran for the general structure of what is to be done?


The gathering/assembly must have a leadership (Imam) as represented by Abraham and God?s instructions for us to follow his model.

?And We have made the Shrine a model for the people and a sanctuary. And take the role model of Abraham as a Musala. And We entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael: ?You shall purify My Shrine for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who yield and submit.? (2:125)

Abraham was designated by God as a leader for mankind (Imam)?Thus we hold our assemblies emulating his role model with a single leadership at the Salat.

We can see that the prophet followed these clear instructions when he led the Salat for his followers during the time of war:

?And if you are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them take their weapons; and when they have submitted then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet Yusalu come and Yusalu with you, and let them be wary and take their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if there is harm to you from rain, or if you are ill, that you put down your weapons, but be wary. God Has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.? (4:102)

b. Using the Scripture.

Since the entire objective of the assembly is to apply God?s laws regarding a specific issue(s), then it becomes clear as day as to what tool will be used to settle arguments/disputes:

"Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the Salat; for the Salat prohibits evil and vice, and the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do." (29:45)

"Surely, those who recite the book of GOD and uphold the Salat, and from our provisions to them they spend secretly and publicly-are engaged in an investment that never loses." (35:29)

"As for those who hold tight with the book, and they uphold the Salat; We will not waste the reward of the upright." (7:170)

c. Judging Disputes.

Once all arguments and points have been made, then the final decision rests with God and His words:

?No, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you judge in what they dispute with each other, then they will not find in their souls any animosity for what you have decided, and they will submit totally.? (4:65)

d. State of Fear.

?Preserve the Salawat, the balanced Salat, and stand devoutly for God. But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He Has taught you what you did not know.? (2:238-239)

Being in a state of fear allows the Assembly to be carried out while on the move (riding or walking)?The people would have to manage to gather the information they need from the Scripture without having the luxury of being stationary and relaxed inside the Temple?Once the emergency is over, then the Salat could be held as previously designed.

e. War-Time.

?And if you are on the offensive in the land, then there is no harm that you make the Salat brief, if you fear that the disbelievers will try you. The disbelievers are to you a clear enemy. .? (4:101)

In cases of ?war?, permission is granted for the believers to shorten the assembly time required to reach conclusions and even consensus in favor of preserving the safety and security of all members involved. Once the threat is over, then the believers are to hold proper focused assembly and re-evaluate themselves and their actions (4:103).

5. After Salat.

Now that the Salat has been completed, it is required of the participants to spread out and convey what they have learnt to others?For God wishes us to be a transparent and educated nation for mankind.  

?Thus, once the assembly is complete, then you shall disperse through the land and seek God's provisions, and remember God frequently, that you may succeed. And if they come across any trade, or some entertainment, they rush to it and leave you standing! Say: ?What God possesses is far better than entertainment or trade. God is the best Provider.? (62:10-11)


Aren?t There Specific Salat Times mentioned in the Quran?.

 ?And you shall hold the assembly at both ends of the daylight and the near part of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.? (11:114)

?You shall hold the assembly at the sun?s setting until the darkness of the night, and the Quran at dawn; the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.? (17:78)

There are two specific times that are mentioned in the Quran for holding the Salat (Fajr & Isha 24:58). If we are quick to judge these verses, then it would be misunderstood that there is some ?fixed? element of time when people must meet every dawn & dusk irrespective of there being an issue to resolve or not?

However, closer reading of the verses reveals that the audience is NOT the people or the believers or even the reader of the Quran, but the audience is one person (singular) and that is the prophet himself. God is speaking to the prophet and telling him to uphold the Salat at these specific times (see 2:183 to study contrast where the audience is all the believers when fasting is decreed).

Now, there are two explanations that can be offered as to why the prophet is holding Salat every day at these specific times:

The prophet is the ?head of state? and thus these meetings are designed to update himself and the government on the daily issues/occurrences of his protectorate.

The prophet is holding these assemblies to give strength to the believers from his personal presence (this is the assemblies of the prophet that God has encouraged 9:103).

A modern Islamic government today would most likely emulate the two fixed Salat times to keep itself abreast of developments and keep itself in touch with the people/masses?However, this does not change the fact that the ?fixed Salat? is unique and specific to the prophet (like allowing polygamy for him, or forbidding his wives from remarrying after his death) and should not be forced out of ignorance upon the people.

What About the Dawn & Dusk (Fajr & Isha) Salat mentioned in 24:58?.

There are two points to consider when looking at this verse:

1.   The subject being addressed in the verse to the believers is not about Salat, but it is about seeking permission for visitations.
2.   It has already been explained to us in the Scripture that birds also carry out a ?Salat?, and that their Salat is a result of them being gathered (perched together). The verse where this is mentioned to us is coincidently is 24:41, which is the same chapter/sura where the Dawn & Dusk Salat is mentioned (24:58). Thus, it is the chirping of the birds at Dawn & Dusk that are being referenced as ?before the Dawn Salat, and after the Dusk Salat? rather than a human act which is being carried out each day and every day and is a reference for all the people to know when or when not to seek permission!.

What About the ?Middle? Salat in 2:238?.

?Preserve the Salawaat, the ?Wusta? Salat, and stand devoutly for God.? (2:238)

The word ?wusta? and its derivatives ?awsat/wasatan? occur in several verses as follows:

?God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the ?awsat? of what you feed your family?? (5:89)

?But when they saw it, they said: ?We were so wrong! Now, we have nothing!? ?awsatuhum? said: ?If only you had glorified!? (68:26-28)

?And as such, We have made you a ?wasatan? nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you..? (2:143)

Clearly the use of ?middle? would not make much sense (From the ?middle? of what you feed? The ?middle? one said? We made you a ?middle? nation?). The answer we are seeking for the best meaning is simply ?balanced/average?.

God has decreed  that we feed the poor in 5:89 from the ?average? of what we like to eat; and that the ?most balanced? of the group spoke; and that we are a ?balanced? nation?Thus the proper meaning for 2:238 becomes:

?Preserve the Salawaat, the balanced Salat, and stand devoutly for God.? (2:238)

What About Facing Mecca ( the Qibla).

The ?Qibla? is the ?focal point? that believers take to rally towards?In the history of the prophets, we have precedence set by Moses who was inspired to make the homes of his people into a ?focal point? during the ordeal in Egypt:
?And We inspired Moses and his brother: ?Take for your people dwellings in Egypt and make your dwellings into a focal point, and hold the Salat. And give good news to the believers.? (10:87)

The idea that there is a stone cube in Arabia that needs to be faced when holding the Salat has no basis from the Quran. Rather, the qibla establishes a capital and a central government where the believers are to ultimately take their direction.

?We see the shifting of your face towards the sky, We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you; you shall set your face towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set your faces towards it. Those who have been given the book know it is the truth from their Lord. And GOD is not unaware of what you do. ? (2:144)

What About  Bowing & Prostrating.

?And if you are with them and you hold the assembly for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them take their weapons; and when they have submitted (Sajadoo) then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet assembled come and assemble with you, and let them be wary and take their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if there is harm to you from rain, or if you are ill, that you put down your weapons, but be wary. God Has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution. ? (4:102)

Submission (Sujood) marks the end of the Salat...Sujood is a ?frame of mind? (acceptance of what has been said) and is not to be confused with the Sunni or Shia physical act of prostration as misunderstood today.

?And to God submit (Yasjud) all those in the heavens and all those on the earth, from the creatures as well as the Angels, and they are not arrogant.? (16:49)

Those who continue to insist that ?Sujood? is a ?Physical? movement are kindly requested to produce a verse from the Quran which gives allowance for those who are ill or unable to skip this mythical act of physical prostration (like the exceptions made for ablution 5:6, fasting 2:184, shaving ones head during pilgrimage 2:196, placing weapons on the ground during wartime Salat 4:102). Since such an exception does not exists in the Quran, then the reason becomes evident: ?it is because there is no such thing as a physical prostration in Salat?.

?And from among His signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not submit (Tasjudoo) to the sun, nor the moon; you shall submit to God who created them, if it is truly Him you serve? (41:37).

This verse above (41:37) is of utmost importance in understanding the meaning of Bow and Prostrate.  We are commanded not to prostrate before sun and moon, which means DO NOT GET ON THE GROUND AND BOW BEFORE PHYSICAL CREATIONS thinking you are worshiping God. God uses Sun and Moon as examples to represent all day and night. No matter what direction you prostrate in the day, you are actually prostrating before the sun, and no matter what direction you prostrate in evening you are still prostrating before the moon. Instead we are commanded to prostrate before God who created them. What does this mean? How is this done? It cannot be the bowing and prostrating we see by so many different religions though out the world because these verses discredit that.

In the story of Solomon we have a clear example of how physical bowing & prostrating can only be interpreted as bowing to the ?Sun or Moon?:

?And he (Solomon) inspected the birds, then said: ?Why do I not see the hoopoe, or is he among those absent? I will punish him severely, or I will kill him, else he should have an evident excuse.? But the hoopoe did not stay away long, then he said: ?I have seen what you do not know, and I have come to you from Sheba with news which is certain. I found them ruled by a woman, and she was given all possession, and she had a great throne. And I found her and her people submitting (Yasjudoo) to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their work appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.?? (27:20-24)

Although we can be quite sure that this was a very ?intelligent? bird...he still did not command the ability to understand human speech (only Solomon was given this gift 27:16). Thus, it becomes apparent that the bird understood what the Queen of Sheba and her people were doing by sheer ?observation?. So, what did he observe?. We are told that he observed them ?prostrating? before the sun...this would indicate that the bird witnessed a ?physical ?prostration by Sheba during the day and knew it had to be to the Sun (prostration to God is to follow His will).

Thus, there is no physical bowing & prostrating (just like Satan and the angels were not asked to bow or prostrate to Adam, but to submit to him)?Salat once again shows itself to be a tool for a people who think and reflect, a tool of  service to mankind, and not a tool to be served by mankind!.

What About Friday Congregation (Al-Jum?a)?.

The Friday Salat has become so embedded in the culture of today?s Muslims that it is almost impossible that it would be given a 2nd thought?Yet, it should have been a signal to those who study the scripture that the ?7-day week? has no basis from the Quran or its calendar system (which details the day, month, and year) but is derived from the merger of the Biblical ?7-days of creation? and the Roman 7-day week where the week represented the known planets (Saturn, Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus).

The Quran does not support the bible in this matter as the universe was created in ?6-days? and God did not need to rest on the ?7th day? as the Jews would like us to believe:

?And We have created the heavens and what is between them in six days, and no fatigue touched Us.? (50:38)

The verse which the Muslim scholars use to promote a special ?Friday Prayer? is the following:

?O you who believe, when the Congregational Prayer (Salat Al-Jumu`ah) is announced on Friday, you shall hasten to the commemoration of GOD,   and drop all business. This is better for you, if you only knew.? (Rashad Khalifa translation of 62:9)

The Arabic wording is ?min yawm al-juma? when literally translated yields totally different results:

?O you who believe, if the Salat is called to at a time of gathering, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew.? (62:9)

Is there a ?Friday? in this verse?. Or is it speaking of the need for people to attend the Salat when the call is made even if they are busy together and busy trading.


By confusing people about the purpose behind Salat (making it into a ritual), the leaders have managed to keep all power to themselves and confuse the masses about their rights and duties to one another...If the Islamic masses listened and thought about the words of God recited to them regularly, then no man or woman could pull the ?wool? over their eyes nor would they be in the tragic state of corruption and affairs they are in.

?After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences. (19:59)

These people in the verse above did not lose the ?ritual? (every faith is loaded with rituals), but they lost the ?purpose? behind the Salat and thus lost the tool which God had provided them with making it null & void.

The Quran has been sent to us from God as a guiding light, and if we decide not to use the book as it was meant to be used, then we can blame none but ourselves for the state of our nation?

?And judge between them by what God Has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God Has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins; and most of the people are corrupt. Is it the judgment of the days of ignorance that they seek? Who is better than God as a judge for a people that comprehend?? (5:49-50)

Salat is more akin to a ?study group? where believers would gather together to resolve and understand issues that plague their lives or their times?It is for each community/group to determine when to call for the Salat depending on their needs and circumstances?Some communities may be developed enough to hold twice a day meetings as the prophet did with the establishment of a state, while others may find getting together once a week or once a month or as need be sufficient for their circumstances.

The objective of this article was to answer the fundamental question: ?Can we find the details of Salat in the Quran??. If you have read the above points carefully, and if you have verified the information for yourself, then the answer would have been clearly a ?yes??The Quran indeed contains all the details we need.

Discuss Latest World News / Islam & the Situation in the Middle East
« on: October 23, 2003, 06:22:01 AM »

Br Layth!

This was the most well explained quote I read for long.

I think people have right to fight the occupants.


Quote from: "Layth"

I would propose to expand this discussion by segmenting it into 'topics' and adressing them one at a time (Occupation, Jews & Christians, Sunni or Muslim, Fight or Emigrate, etc...).

Please note that the article which is sparking this controvercy was dileberately posted here in the forum to have a discussion, rather than posting it as a full article on the site when it may have flaws...

I would like to start by tackling the issue of 'occupation'.

Putting the Quran aside for a moment and using common sence, If you and your family were secure in your home and someone burst through the door brandishing a gun, shooting some of your family, humiliating the rest...You would have two options:

1. Leave the house to the thief/occupier.
2. Fight for your right and take back what is yours while driving the occupier out.

Now, let's say you stayed and went and hid in the bedroom while the thief and his gang were running around your house...When you came out to look, you saw he had moved his women and children and pets into your living room and was using your tell them all to 'please leave', but they laugh at you or kill some more of your family and humiliate you.


This is the situation of occupation devoid of the complexities of politics and a play on words...Now, does the Quran support man's right to self defence, self preservation, and a retention of ones property and land?. Or does the Quran teach people to support occupation and give-up their property and possesions with a smile?.

If the Russians invaded the US and won, would you support the right of Americans to defend their land, their rights, and their dignity by fighting the occupation to every last man woman and child?.

If you find yourself agreeing to the Americans fighting an occupation, why then are you denying that same right to the Iraqi's or Palestinains?.


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